tool z and x ref and offsets discussion for lathe auto tool touch off

[greenail]

thanks for the detail. I will update the first post to reflect this advice.

4 questions:

1. why not probe vi m115 to find part x zero vs taking a skim cut? Is this simply a preference or is there an accuracy delta?
2. why not run "measure Z and X"? Is this routine not recommended, it seems like it saves you a few steps.
3. it seems like you could do steps 1..5 with one "master tool" macro that just uses the m115 / m116 and the probe safe move parameters?
4. is it safe to say that auto measure X, auto measure Z, and auto measure Z and x should not be used for the master tool?

[GBCues]

Hi Keith,
Is the above manual procedure valid for a horizontal lathe with a rear tool in 12.4.18? The reason I ask is apparently there is a problem with one of the autodetect macros for this type machine in 4.18, which is to be corrected in 4.20.
But the manual method should be correct for either a front or a back mounted cross-slide, correct?
Thanks!
Gary

[greenail]

I have asked quite a few questions but I don't see any responses. Wondering if my questions are stupid or covered somewhere in the manual where I have missed them?

I've also updated the first post and was looking for feedback on that.

GBCues also had a question that went unanswered.

[martyscncgarage]

I have asked quite a few questions but I don't see any responses. Wondering if my questions are stupid or covered somewhere in the manual where I have missed them?

I've also updated the first post and was looking for feedback on that.

GBCues also had a question that went unanswered.

Did you start a new thread? Or did you add to someone elses?
Start your own topic and follow this thread:
viewtopic.php?f=60&t=1043

I scanned the main page and did't see your topic specifically. Perhaps I missed it. I tend to try and answer questions of hardware/techincal in nature. I don't know everything there is to know. BUT we have other Power User that can help as well.
But users need to start their own topic, not "Hi-Jack" another users thread as we are doing here.

I just searched for messages posted from you Greenail. I see many threads where you got answers....

Marty

[greenail]

I'd like to write a response detailing how centroid could look to other community supported products and consider making some changes to how it treats it's customers. I do not get the feeling it would be received with an open mind. Most of the responses to this thread feel like the first post was skimmed and mostly ignored.

From the customer's perspective I suppose I am just SOL and I should purchase technical support so that I can get the features like auto tool measuring documented. That feels like a bait and switch. Perhaps here just isn't enough lathe pro users to support the effort. Perhaps I should have gone with another product. The reason I bough the centroid acorn was to avoid trying to understand and document the few spindle sync ports of GRBL.

I want to be clear that RTFM is a valid response. For software "read the source code" can be a valid response to a support request. RTFM is not a valid support response when a feature is advertised but not documented. In this case it seems that centroid believes the documentation for auto tool measurement is adequate. I do not agree. When something is not documented and you have someone willing to work to document it for the community I don't think you should treat community contributors like you would someone with an obscure configuration problem. That is just my opinion based on working with open source projects for the past 25 years.

I see there is very good community support in some of these threads which is commendable. I think centroid could make the experience better and should look to other community supported products to see how it can improve. At this point though I don't think I can recommend centroid acorn to anyone who wants to try to contribute to the community or to get support from the community. Critical feedback does not seem to be something the moderators of this forum welcome and that is a shame.

[Gary Campbell]

So, let me get this straight.... with a few questions

1) The current documentation is not adequate for you to understand the process? And the video(s) were no help either?

2) So do you currently have a method that works well for you that you wish to document?

3) Or are you looking for assistance (paid or unpaid) so that you can provide a better written manual?

4) Are you aware that in the CNC operational and design world that close to 90% of all product improvement suggestions come from users in their first month or two of use? (read as "don't quite understand the product" fully)

5) Are you aware that the vast majority of lathe users here, and there are a lot of them, have been able to learn the process from the manual and videos?

If I had a vote, and believe me that I do not, I personally wouldn't vote to have an inexperienced user that is finding difficulty with current methods be the one to pen the next gen of docs.

[greenail]

So, let me get this straight.... with a few questions

1) The current documentation is not adequate for you to understand the process? And the video(s) were no help either?

yes, I was not able to infer the correct auto tool setting procedure from the video detailing the manual process.

2) So do you currently have a method that works well for you that you wish to document?

I do, I've edited the first post of this thread with my current understanding of a working process. I was asking for someone to take a look to confirm that it will work.

3) Or are you looking for assistance (paid or unpaid) so that you can provide a better written manual?

I wanted to clarify the terms and process for the community. It would be great if the manual was updated.

4) Are you aware that in the CNC operational and design world that close to 90% of all product improvement suggestions come from users in their first month or two of use? (read as "don't quite understand the product" fully)

i was not aware of that. Are you suggesting the users are at fault or that the design is at fault? Maybe people stop suggesting improvements because no one is listening or they don't believe any changes are possible. I wonder how autodesk would be doing if their user interface still looked like intercon? Sorry but this is getting snippy. That is not my intention.

don't get me wrong, change for change's sake isn't productive but I'm not actually suggesting any product feature changes here. I'm just trying to get and understanding of "why". If you answer is "that is just the way it is" then I am not likely to be able to do anything with my newly acquired knowledge. Keith doesn't suggest using the "Measure Z and X" routine. I find this perplexing. Why not use something that seems to save time and simplify the process? Maybe I shouldn't ask but I can't help it. it seems like the obvious routine to use.

5) Are you aware that the vast majority of lathe users here, and there are a lot of them, have been able to learn the process from the manual and videos?

that is a great tidbit. how does that help me? are you saying that I should stop asking for help because I was not able to infer the right process from the manual? The manual does not step through the full auto tool setting process for new master tool setup or adding new tools after homing/reboot. It sounds like you are suggesting that I should not do those things if I can't learn them from the manual or a video that details manual tool offsets?

If I had a vote, and believe me that I do not, I personally wouldn't vote to have an inexperienced user that is finding difficulty with current methods be the one to pen the next gen of docs.

I'm not trying to pen the next gen of docs on my own. I'm trying to get Centroid to clarify a gap in the documentation and to better define the terms that are used so that other new users can have an easier time learning how to use their products. Don't you think that Centroid can build a stronger community if they make it easier for new users?

Maybe the moderators should just delete this whole thread?

[DocsMachine]

I find I kind of have to agree with Greens on this one, to a certain extent.

Speaking personally, while I've been a machinist for over 20 years now, I've only very recently started dipping my toes into the world of CNC. And as such, I have nearly zero background- I know the concepts behind CNC, but up until just a few years ago, I'd never CAD'ed anything, never used a CNC anything, never so much as pushed the start button.

And I have to say my education so far has often been VERY frustrating. Virtually all the resources out there- YouTube especially- start with the assumption you know something about CNC. The ones that don't, assume you know nothing, and start you out at the level of "This big thing over here is what we call a 'mill', and this is called an 'end mill'".

Personally, I need something in between, and better yet, specific. A generic "here's the concept of CNC in general" video does me no good. The Video referenced where, with somebody showing how to set up lathe tools was in fact very helpful, but was still much too disjointed, as the narrator would go off on a tangent and confuse the order-of-operations a bit.

For somebody already fluent in the process, it's a fine video. For someone still struggling with the concept of an "offset", no offense to the author of the video, but it could indeed be a little more clear.

Going along with Greens here, I have to agree- the manual, as written, is detailed and complete, but it's also written for an experienced CNC engineer, or at least an experienced CNC expert. A more colloquially written version, for those of us still very much in the "what's this button do?" stage, would, I believe, be very helpful, especially considering how the Acorn is intended to be a DIY-er/home-shop type's board.

Doc.

[martyscncgarage]

CNC Cookbook that s a good resource for the beginning CNC'er:
https://www.cnccookbook.com/diy-cnc-beg ... -cookbook/

Learning the technical terms and workflow is important.

As for Centroid, it's a powerful piece of industrial software and very capable. It started out that way. It was meant to be a control upgrade for old outdated or obsolete hardware and software.
On one hand that's a good thing for us, because it's proven software, on another hand the documentation can be pretty technical for some.

Writing a specific manual can be a daunting, time consuming and overwhelming task. I know because I've started to write one specifically for Acorn a time or two. I'll try and get back on it...

For newer users, CNC Cookbook is a great place to start, lots of good information there
Marty

[Gary Campbell]

This is a great topic, and in one way or the other, obvious or otherwise, it comes up often. Green's points and Doc's validation of them are very typical examples of the frustrations that many users experience when jumping into CNC. As a CNC instructor for the last 7 years I have had the honor of instructing a couple thousand students, most of which were relatively new.

The vast majority have a few things in common. Since most are adults and usually successful in one field or another they assume that they will be able to learn "this CNC process" in a few days or weeks. They also assume that they can jump to whichever portion of the learning curve they have an immediate interest in and learn that section instead of starting at the beginning and learning the craft from the ground up. They also assume that all the info they should require is on the internet, that it is correct, of course, free. The worst of them when frustrated, seem to feel that others owe them an explanation in a manner that will allow them to understand the process at hand.

All of the previous assumptions are incorrect and I'll tell you why. Forget CNC, lets take grade school math. You learn about numbers, then what they mean, then you add and subtract, then multiply and divide, then exponents, algebra, trig, calculus.......... No first or second grade student should reasonably expect to watch a YouTube video on 7th grade algebra and understand it in a few minutes. Yet CNC Newbys do this all the time. As simple as building a house from cards. The foundation layers must be in place before the higher layers can be built.

The worst assumption made is that the learning is free. There is a cost to everything. In the case of DIY CNC the cost is usually time. That, of course, is a slap in the face to most in this "instant gratification" world we live in. Pay me now, or pay me later. Take time and possibly dollars to learn what you need in a short time, or stretch it out over years to save dollars. In any case learning is the responsibility of the receiver. Yes, the oweness is on you. Personal responsibility. Unique concept. It is on YOU to learn the foundational material.

Here is a chart of the natural progression of a simple process... riding a bike. Each version of bike teaches us another part of the process, adds to our skillset and muscle memory. It will take longer to learn the intermediate steps if those prior have not been successfully learned. I have labeled the unargueable "bike steps" with appropriate CNC steps to help make my point. Of course, a show of hands lets all the users know they only came there to learn the 1000 Kawasaki!

CNC learning is like climbing a ladder, you must start at the bottom rung and proceed up at your own speed. Take shortcuts at your own peril!