This Centroid setup is wrecking my machine!

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ashesman
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Re: This Centroid setup is wrecking my machine!

Post by ashesman »

centroid467 wrote: Mon Oct 07, 2024 3:19 pm Turns per rev, steps per rev, and acceleration values are loaded from your reports. I set up the drive to use 30,000 steps per rev. That plot is from an MDI move: G1 X50 F1500. The main differences are that I have a single axis, different drive/motor (2kW 2k RPM), and different tuning as well because I have no load on the motor shaft. It's a bench setup through and through.


Personally, I'm approaching this with the mindset that if we can repeat this issue on our end then we will be able to find out the cause and fix it. I have the programmer assigned to improvements to smoothing (@adenchik) in on this as well. I can't say what priority it would have or anything regarding how long it would take but we would give it our best shot once we can replicate the issue and troubleshoot. I do not believe the drives are the issue but it is going to be extraordinarily difficult for us to troubleshoot this without being able to make the problem happen.

I'll run more aggressive accelerations and your gcode myself and see what happens.
Thanks. I appreciate you taking it seriously. Sorry, I didnt realise you had set up the whole thing.

I assume the flat spots in the step output with smoothing enabled was reproducible? I still have to run smoothing to even use this machine at all.


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Re: This Centroid setup is wrecking my machine!

Post by cnckeith »

ashesman wrote: Sat Oct 05, 2024 1:59 am
cnckeith wrote: did you reset the drive to factory defaults BEFORE setting the Centroid provided Delta parameters?
The drives were brand new when I put the parameters in. I also checked them again the other day against the application note. The drive parameter file is attached in a previous post.

The drives are working perfectly IMO.
just because the drives are brand new doesn't mean anything. you always PERFORM a factory reset. This drive setup 101. i've even read this in most manuals as a recommendation from the drive manufacture themselves. holy batman. why? why? are you resisting performing a common sense 5 minute procedure , disregarding free support from guys that have been doing this their whole life must mean nothing? guess i'll chalk this one up to leading a horse to water. good luck with your project.
Need support? READ THIS POST first. http://centroidcncforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=60&t=1043
All Acorn Documentation is located here: viewtopic.php?f=60&t=3397
Answers to common questions: viewforum.php?f=63
and here viewforum.php?f=61
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centroid467
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Re: This Centroid setup is wrecking my machine!

Post by centroid467 »

ashesman wrote: Mon Oct 07, 2024 3:56 pm I assume the flat spots in the step output with smoothing enabled was reproducible? I still have to run smoothing to even use this machine at all.
Nope, not able to reproduce the flat spots yet. Does that test.nc program you posted on a previous page cause this issue?

Also, I am unable to open your drive parameter file using ASDASoft V5.5.0, what version are you using?


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Re: This Centroid setup is wrecking my machine!

Post by cncsnw »

ashesman wrote:Little test programs seem to be ok, but bigger programs that are harder to show don't.
Are you saying that if you select and copy just 3-5 seconds of movement out of a big program -- movement that consistently exhibits the problem -- and paste that into a separate file to run as a test program, then the problem does not occur?

If so, that in itself could be a clue as to what is going on. I cannot meaningfully speculate on it, as I do not know enough about the low-level code that is used when running in position mode: e.g. how the MPU queues up and clocks out motion pulses at the correct rate, based on the stream of motion commands coming down from CNC12.

One subtle point that I think has been overlooked in some of the responses is that -- if I understand your description correctly -- the "flat spots" are in the velocity vs. time graph; not position vs. time. In other words, they are pauses in acceleration, not pauses in motion. This says that the MPU has continued to clock out motion pulses at a constant rate, but appears to have momentarily ceased changing the rate.

I would not rule out the possibility that the issue is in the drive's response to the incoming pulses. If a person with time, resources and knowledge had a segment of G code that consistently showed the problem, then they could use the CNC12/MPU "debug dump" feature to capture a short interval (maybe one second?) of the low-level data, to see what the outgoing pulse stream looks like. That could be compared to the Delta data plot, to see if the pause in acceleration was commanded from the MPU or not.


Regarding Keith's comment about doing a factory reset to defaults before programming a drive: I realize you already posted a parameter dump from the affected drive, so you assume that a support technician will take the time to do a line-by-line comparison of your parameters with a known-good parameter set. Keith's position is presumably that, because everyone's time is limited, they should not have to do that.


ashesman
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Re: This Centroid setup is wrecking my machine!

Post by ashesman »

cnckeith wrote: Mon Oct 07, 2024 4:01 pm
ashesman wrote: Sat Oct 05, 2024 1:59 am
cnckeith wrote: did you reset the drive to factory defaults BEFORE setting the Centroid provided Delta parameters?
The drives were brand new when I put the parameters in. I also checked them again the other day against the application note. The drive parameter file is attached in a previous post.

The drives are working perfectly IMO.
just because the drives are brand new doesn't mean anything. you always PERFORM a factory reset. This drive setup 101. i've even read this in most manuals as a recommendation from the drive manufacture themselves. holy batman. why? why? are you resisting performing a common sense 5 minute procedure , disregarding free support from guys that have been doing this their whole life must mean nothing? guess i'll chalk this one up to leading a horse to water. good luck with your project.
Thanks mate...

I have done a compare in the drive between default values and all the changed parameters. There are not many.

If I thought the drives were doing something wrong, I would consider a reset, but the drives are not doing anything wrong, they work perfectly as far as I am concerned.


ashesman
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Re: This Centroid setup is wrecking my machine!

Post by ashesman »

centroid467 wrote: Mon Oct 07, 2024 4:57 pm
ashesman wrote: Mon Oct 07, 2024 3:56 pm I assume the flat spots in the step output with smoothing enabled was reproducible? I still have to run smoothing to even use this machine at all.
Nope, not able to reproduce the flat spots yet. Does that test.nc program you posted on a previous page cause this issue?

Also, I am unable to open your drive parameter file using ASDASoft V5.5.0, what version are you using?
I am using ASDASoft 5.5.0. I am able to download the par file from my original post and open it again. I reattached the parameter file, this time as a zip. Although, I don't think drive setup really matters too much as the command flat spots are generated by the controller.
Capture.JPG
The flat spots examples were all generated using MDI G01 X50 F1500 (from X0), with smoothing turned on and set to "Ashley Mill" profile. The report is attached to the original post, I assume it has the smoothing settings in it.
Attachments
X Drive Params.zip
(5.11 KiB) Downloaded 12 times


ashesman
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Re: This Centroid setup is wrecking my machine!

Post by ashesman »

cncsnw wrote: Mon Oct 07, 2024 5:23 pm
ashesman wrote:Little test programs seem to be ok, but bigger programs that are harder to show don't.
Are you saying that if you select and copy just 3-5 seconds of movement out of a big program -- movement that consistently exhibits the problem -- and paste that into a separate file to run as a test program, then the problem does not occur?

If so, that in itself could be a clue as to what is going on. I cannot meaningfully speculate on it, as I do not know enough about the low-level code that is used when running in position mode: e.g. how the MPU queues up and clocks out motion pulses at the correct rate, based on the stream of motion commands coming down from CNC12.
I tried making small example programs manually to reproduce what I see when that bigger program is running, but they seem to run fine! I tried stripping down the bigger program, but it seemed to come right the closer I got to a smaller program. But, I really don't know how to make a consistent program to reproduce it. I have burnt some serious hours fluffing around with this so far. Enough that I threw my hands up and just walked away from it the other day!
cncsnw wrote: One subtle point that I think has been overlooked in some of the responses is that -- if I understand your description correctly -- the "flat spots" are in the velocity vs. time graph; not position vs. time. In other words, they are pauses in acceleration, not pauses in motion. This says that the MPU has continued to clock out motion pulses at a constant rate, but appears to have momentarily ceased changing the rate.
The graphs are position count vs time. Suddenly the pulse train stops counting which means the controller said stop moving completely, without any decel, then start counting again without accel.

I feel like an Oak loaded with the files from my report, asked to do the same movements should produce the same stepping output, but maybe I am oversimplifying the difficulty of reproducing my setup.

I have really muddled this post up by discussing two issues I have seen. The flat spots in pulses, and harsh transitions between g code moves that should otherwise be smooth. The later issue is the one most conversation has been about, and is the one I struggle to reproduce. The first issue is covered entirely in my first post and is 100% reproducible (on my machine).
cncsnw wrote: I would not rule out the possibility that the issue is in the drive's response to the incoming pulses. If a person with time, resources and knowledge had a segment of G code that consistently showed the problem, then they could use the CNC12/MPU "debug dump" feature to capture a short interval (maybe one second?) of the low-level data, to see what the outgoing pulse stream looks like. That could be compared to the Delta data plot, to see if the pause in acceleration was commanded from the MPU or not.
I think the drives have been ruled out. Turning on/of smoothing makes the problem go away immediately, turning it back on makes it come back. I have not seen one example where the drives haven't done exactly what they were told to do.
cncsnw wrote: Regarding Keith's comment about doing a factory reset to defaults before programming a drive: I realize you already posted a parameter dump from the affected drive, so you assume that a support technician will take the time to do a line-by-line comparison of your parameters with a known-good parameter set. Keith's position is presumably that, because everyone's time is limited, they should not have to do that.
I didn't attach the file with the intention of someone else having to do a comparison. Just so it could be loaded directly into a drive to reproduce. I have done a comparison myself, several times. The delta software allows a comparison against default values with a few clicks. The Centroid recommended parameters are set as they should be. The only other difference are gain tuning values and some special values the drive seems to change itself.


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Re: This Centroid setup is wrecking my machine!

Post by Schaublin12 »

For fast movements, you should make sure that the distance-time diagram is harmonious - including the 3rd and 4th differentiation of that curve, that is jerk and impact


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Re: This Centroid setup is wrecking my machine!

Post by eng199 »

cncsnw wrote: Mon Oct 07, 2024 5:23 pm If a person with time, resources and knowledge had a segment of G code that consistently showed the problem, then they could use the CNC12/MPU "debug dump" feature to capture a short interval (maybe one second?) of the low-level data, to see what the outgoing pulse stream looks like. That could be compared to the Delta data plot, to see if the pause in acceleration was commanded from the MPU or not.
This is part of our plan, with the segment of G code being "G01 X50 F1500". The flat spots could be lost counts on the position request. However, this was ruled out because there was no mention of standoff or other position errors. There is some chance that something is amiss in the Delta plot collection or position input. A comparison of the Centroid and Delta plot should show if this is the case, or we are just not reproducing the problem.


cncsnw
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Re: This Centroid setup is wrecking my machine!

Post by cncsnw »

ashesman wrote:The graphs are position count vs time. Suddenly the pulse train stops counting which means the controller said stop moving completely, without any decel, then start counting again without accel.
Thank you for the clarification. I obviously misinterpreted your original report.

A brief complete stop in command pulses sounds like data starvation: machine motion is happening faster than CNC12 can keep up with supplying vector data from the G codes. This is more likely to happen with smoothing turned on, because there is a lot more processing that has to happen before the vector data is ready to send to the MPU.

Change P223 from 800 to 400, and see if that makes a difference in the "flat spot" behavior.

Also check again to make sure your control PC is not running any extraneous Windows software or tasks that might be competing for the CPU's attention.


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