Oak with lathe turret position questions.

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occustoms
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Oak with lathe turret position questions.

Post by occustoms »

Ok i have a few questions for a retrofit im doing on my older mazak lathe. I have some manual information ill post pics of. But first thing is they are using 24 reed switch inputs. They use 2 per tool position first one is for slow down hydraulic solenoid and other is high. Looks like its all done with hydraulics. So do i need to have all 24 inputs. Or is their a way to simplify this that wont require me buying another 1616 . And make it easy to do. Like maybe an encoder and use one reed switch for tool 1 or whatever tool and offset with encoder?
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occustoms
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Re: Oak with lathe turret position questions.

Post by occustoms »

well i guess im just buying another 1616 and keep the factory way of working. lol.
cncsnw
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Re: Oak with lathe turret position questions.

Post by cncsnw »

You could do it with an encoder: for example, a 300-line incremental encoder would give the control 1200 counts per revolution, or 100 counts per tool.

You could then use PLC logic to read the encoder position and determine when it is close enough to decelerate, and when it is close enough to stop.

Something like this would provide suitable signals:
https://www.automationdirect.com/adc/sh ... rd-sh300vd

Of course, an encoder might be too tall to fit in the available space.
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Re: Oak with lathe turret position questions.

Post by occustoms »

cncsnw wrote: Sun Nov 06, 2022 5:42 pm You could do it with an encoder: for example, a 300-line incremental encoder would give the control 1200 counts per revolution, or 100 counts per tool.

You could then use PLC logic to read the encoder position and determine when it is close enough to decelerate, and when it is close enough to stop.

Something like this would provide suitable signals:
https://www.automationdirect.com/adc/sh ... rd-sh300vd

Of course, an encoder might be too tall to fit in the available space.
Space isn't an issue because the cover that covers it, i can fabricate a new one as their is plenty of space behind it. Just didnt want to have to make an extremely hard way to figure out plc for tool change. From what i can see on manual and flow chart is, that it uses one solenoid to turn what they call orbit motor, hydraulic motor. This solenoid is adjustable pressure and is the high speed. once the desired tool number low reed or slow down reed is sensed. then it turns that solenoid off and activates the slow solenoid. And when it sees the 2nd reed for the tool it stops and unclamps. Then verifies with switch that it closed correctly.

This is a relative simple design. will it be worth my while to just keep same logic and buy another 1616? Or since i have to modity tool change plc anyways is it about the same work to use an encoder and setup the tool changer that way.

Im new to the plc and havent read the manual just yet. I noticed that the lathe atc is totally diff than the umbrella tool change that is on my fadal with oak.

So basically what im asking is, is the programming about the same amount of work either way in the plc side of things?
cncsnw
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Re: Oak with lathe turret position questions.

Post by cncsnw »

Probably about the same amount of work.

Using the 24 separate reed switches is awkward, in that the input you are watching for to trigger deceleration will be different for every tool position. You either end up with a lot of duplicate code, or you need to use indirect indexing, which is a little obscure for most readers.

With an encoder, you can compute the encoder count at the target position; and you can trigger deceleration when you are within some threshold counts of that target.

Supposing you connect the turret encoder to encoder input #5 (leaving #6 for the spindle encoder); and you keep the default P312=5; then the PLC program can access that position using SV_MPU11_ABS_POS_4 (yes, ..._ABS_POS_4 gives you the encoder counts for axis #5).

If you write the computed turret position into a non-volatile word variable (e.g. SV_NV_W1), and read it back from there on power-up (i.e. in InitialStage), then you will not need to "home" the turret. The PLC can simply remember where it is from session to session (with, of course, an M code such as "M18" to set it when necessary).
occustoms
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Re: Oak with lathe turret position questions.

Post by occustoms »

cncsnw wrote: Mon Nov 07, 2022 12:26 am Probably about the same amount of work.

Using the 24 separate reed switches is awkward, in that the input you are watching for to trigger deceleration will be different for every tool position. You either end up with a lot of duplicate code, or you need to use indirect indexing, which is a little obscure for most readers.

With an encoder, you can compute the encoder count at the target position; and you can trigger deceleration when you are within some threshold counts of that target.

Supposing you connect the turret encoder to encoder input #5 (leaving #6 for the spindle encoder); and you keep the default P312=5; then the PLC program can access that position using SV_MPU11_ABS_POS_4 (yes, ..._ABS_POS_4 gives you the encoder counts for axis #5).

If you write the computed turret position into a non-volatile word variable (e.g. SV_NV_W1), and read it back from there on power-up (i.e. in InitialStage), then you will not need to "home" the turret. The PLC can simply remember where it is from session to session (with, of course, an M code such as "M18" to set it when necessary).

Ok just to make sure everything is ok. this is the plan on the machine.
Its gonna use a live tool so i can mill on it. So i will be using the spindle in both regular rpm and also angle like others have done with acorn six and clutch system.
I plan on using 1.5kw drive and motor for that with electric clutch system. So ill have an encoder input on that. was planning on using header 3 axis for that.
Will i have any issues with swapping between regular machining and say live tooling swap? That will still be 4 axis and not 5 right? where i have to have that extra software package for the 5 axis unlock.
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Re: Oak with lathe turret position questions.

Post by cnckeith »

Yes, 4 + 2 will work. You don't need the simultaneous unlock.
Need support? READ THIS POST first. http://centroidcncforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=60&t=1043
All Acorn Documentation is located here: viewtopic.php?f=60&t=3397
Answers to common questions: viewforum.php?f=63
and here viewforum.php?f=61
Gear we use but don't sell. https://www.centroidcnc.com/centroid_di ... _gear.html
cncsnw
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Re: Oak with lathe turret position questions.

Post by cncsnw »

An encoder for turret-position feedback, while it occupies an axis number, does not count as a controlled axis.

Even if it were a servo-controlled axis (as some turrets are), since you never move it while cutting, it would not be an issue. The 5-axis software is only required to move five axes all at the same time.

What you are describing is a 3-axis lathe: Z, X and C. Spindles are not axes either, except when one may double as a C axis.
occustoms
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Re: Oak with lathe turret position questions.

Post by occustoms »

cncsnw wrote: Tue Nov 08, 2022 1:33 pm An encoder for turret-position feedback, while it occupies an axis number, does not count as a controlled axis.

Even if it were a servo-controlled axis (as some turrets are), since you never move it while cutting, it would not be an issue. The 5-axis software is only required to move five axes all at the same time.

What you are describing is a 3-axis lathe: Z, X and C. Spindles are not axes either, except when one may double as a C axis.
Awesome, i was unaware how they "defined" an axis on the centroid control. So the pro software i got will be suffice and i ordered a 600 p/r quadrature encoder, because why not have better resolution. lol. I will probably have one of the guys on here custom code it (for a price im well aware) when i get to that point. I get the centroid electronics end of this week, already in mail, so will be bench testing new drive to see if it will work as i want it too. Fingers crossed (its a cheaper china motor/drive combo 1.5kw they have ben helpful on diagrams so far and communication has ben good just delay on time zones is only thing), (at least on bench I know ill have to tune it with load on it later in machine.) Im sure it will be fine for c axis, but hoping i can use them on z and x as well.

Gonna bring back to life this ole little Mazak micro slant 15 lol. Better than it was when she was born 42yrs ago. I guess im a gluten for projects. This will make the 4th centroid conversion machine in shop.

Thanks for your help as well.
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Re: Oak with lathe turret position questions.

Post by mindego »

Hi guys,
I'm new on centroid so I hope that my problem is simple and easy to fix.
I'm retrofitting Fanuc 6T lathe with hydraulic turret.
Using OAK PLC with customized „Centroid_Standard-Lathe-OAK-8-tool_electric_atc-R1.src“.
Tool changer do Indexing correct. But when I run example T0200 M6 it make all positioning job correct, but I get message on screen „waiting for input #32 (M94)“ and job hangs up.
What should I do that all process will end correctly.
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