KP-3 Probe Woes

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polaraligned
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KP-3 Probe Woes

Post by polaraligned »

I purchased this probe back in Spring, but just started using it. Pretty much hobbyist with no time syndrome, lol.
Anyway, it's accuracy has been questionable on a few parts that I started making over the last 2 weeks. It sticks in the "tripped" position sometimes. Worse, when it does not stick the accuracy is highly questionable, sometimes varying as much as 30+ thousandths. And yes, my machine is in good working order and the runout as checked with a Swiss made tenths indicator shows near zero movement on the probe tip as it is rotated. This is a problem with the KP-3.

The most unsettling part is not that it sometimes sticks, but rather the trip point is not consistently correct. I can rotate the spindle with the probe in it and just consistently get different results that are off by several thousandths depending on the orientation of the probe. I can do the same single axis probe over and over and get those same variable results. And as seen in the video, the probe routine can perform seemingly flawlessly and give you a very erroneous result.

A user on one of the Facebook Centroid forums is having the same problem, so I hope this is not an issue with design/fabrication of the probe.

Here is a video of it failing and measuring inaccurately.

polaraligned
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Re: KP-3 Probe Woes

Post by polaraligned »

I emailed Centroid last night and promptly got a response from Scott at 8:00 this morning, excellent customer service as usual. He looked at the video and suspected that there is some dirt inside the unit. He is issuing a RMA and said they will possibly cover it under warranty depending on the exact issue. If there is dirt in there, it certainly was not from me as there is a dust seal and this unit has spent 99% of it's short life in my tool cabinet.

I am looking forward to seeing what is wrong as I need confidence in this probe or there is no point in having it. I machined 2 parts last week each taking 4+ hours of machine time. I was suspicious of something because the LED light would stay on faintly at times, so I took extra caution to make sure my parts were located correctly. Nothing would be worse than ruining a part you have so much invested in.
martyscncgarage
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Re: KP-3 Probe Woes

Post by martyscncgarage »

polaraligned wrote: Mon Nov 08, 2021 7:05 pm I emailed Centroid last night and promptly got a response from Scott at 8:00 this morning, excellent customer service as usual. He looked at the video and suspected that there is some dirt inside the unit. He is issuing a RMA and said they will possibly cover it under warranty depending on the exact issue. If there is dirt in there, it certainly was not from me as there is a dust seal and this unit has spent 99% of it's short life in my tool cabinet.

I am looking forward to seeing what is wrong as I need confidence in this probe or there is no point in having it. I machined 2 parts last week each taking 4+ hours of machine time. I was suspicious of something because the LED light would stay on faintly at times, so I took extra caution to make sure my parts were located correctly. Nothing would be worse than ruining a part you have so much invested in.
Keep us posted!
Marty
Reminder, for support please follow this post: viewtopic.php?f=20&t=383
We can't "SEE" what you see...
Mesa, AZ
polaraligned
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Re: KP-3 Probe Woes

Post by polaraligned »

I sent this probe back to Centroid and they had it in their possession Nov 15. I did not get it back from them until after Christmas. I followed up along the way with 2 emails and was assured that they were "getting to it". Finally, I posted on the Facebook forum and complained and it got put to the top of the list. They were very apologetic and I even got a call from them apologizing. I totally understand that things like this happen especially in the current environment. Centroid's service has always been fast and top notch in the past.

What is happening now is totally unacceptable. I only got to trying the probe late Sunday as I was away for New Years weekend. I was running Swissi's app trying to check out the "trip map" feature. I was having problems with the probe not being able to run around the bore and Swissi made adjustments to the program twice in the last 2 days to solve this problem. Kudos to him and his outstanding helpful service.

Honestly, I was most interested in Swissi's app because of the ability to test the probe's performance and I told him so when I purchased it. I was leery of this probe and it's sticking problems in light of the fact that this probe failed sticking at such an early age.

I was unfortunately correct with my hunch. I went into the garage this morning to try the 2nd revision that Swissi made to the app and THE PROBE IS STICKING AGAIN. I am very upset at this.

Please look at at the video.

swissi
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Re: KP-3 Probe Woes

Post by swissi »

Just wanted to add some information what the issue was running the ProbeApp TripMap probing cycle on polaraligned's machine.

For those who have never seen a Trip Map of a Touch Probe, it looks like this:

pa168.png

The Touch Probe is placed in the exact center of a bore with a well known diameter and the Touch Probe will go around the bore in steps of set degrees to move out to the bore edge, record the trip point and then slowly retracts in the opposite direction until the probe un-trips and then records the un-trip point and then retracts further to move to the next degree step for the next probing. Now when the probe retracts to the un-trip position, the probe is in kind of an unstable position at that point as it sits right at the point between trip and un-trip and any vibration of the machine can trigger the probe again quickly before it retracts further.

Now polaraligned's machine is running the Servo version of CNC12 which has a slightly different implementation of the Probe Protection function compared to the Acorn version of CNC12. If the Probe Protection is turned on on the Servo Version of CNC12, the Probe Protection must be disabled before the probe can be retracted from a tripped position and then be re-enabled. Now when the probe was in an unstable position during the TripMap cycle and the probe tripped again quickly before getting out of the unstable position, CNC12 saw this as an unexpected probe trip and terminated the probing cycle.

I have now fixed this issue and the ProbeApp TripMap should now run without issues even on the Servo Version of CNC12 with Probe Protection enabled.

There's definitely something unusual going on with polaraligned's KP-3 as I do have the KP-3 as well and I have run thousands of probing cycles with this probe while developing the ProbeApp and did never have any issues.

If you are interested in testing how well your Touch Probe performs under real world conditions, the ProbeApp TripMap will give you brutally honest information about what overall probing accuracy you can expect on your machine, taking into account probe styles deflection, probe mechanism inaccuracies as well as axes backlash etc.

Checkout the links below in my signature for more information about the ProbeApp.

-swissi
If you are using Fusion 360, check out my CNC12 specific Post Processor
If you are using a Touch Probe, Tool Touch Off Device or a Triple Corner Finder Plate, check out my ProbeApp

Contact me at swissi2000@gmail.com
martyscncgarage
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Re: KP-3 Probe Woes

Post by martyscncgarage »

polaraligned wrote: Tue Jan 04, 2022 10:15 am I sent this probe back to Centroid and they had it in their possession Nov 15. I did not get it back from them until after Christmas. I followed up along the way with 2 emails and was assured that they were "getting to it". Finally, I posted on the Facebook forum and complained and it got put to the top of the list. They were very apologetic and I even got a call from them apologizing. I totally understand that things like this happen especially in the current environment. Centroid's service has always been fast and top notch in the past.

What is happening now is totally unacceptable. I only got to trying the probe late Sunday as I was away for New Years weekend. I was running Swissi's app trying to check out the "trip map" feature. I was having problems with the probe not being able to run around the bore and Swissi made adjustments to the program twice in the last 2 days to solve this problem. Kudos to him and his outstanding helpful service.

Honestly, I was most interested in Swissi's app because of the ability to test the probe's performance and I told him so when I purchased it. I was leery of this probe and it's sticking problems in light of the fact that this probe failed sticking at such an early age.

I was unfortunately correct with my hunch. I went into the garage this morning to try the 2nd revision that Swissi made to the app and THE PROBE IS STICKING AGAIN. I am very upset at this.

Please look at at the video.

Polaraligned,
Please, I mean no disrespect. But all we can do is assume you followed the KP-3 manual:
https://www.centroidcnc.com/centroid_di ... _probe.pdf
And manually tripped the probe several times to test it before testing it in a bore?
Was the probe crashed, in other words pushed beyond its normal travel limits?

There are many KP-3's out there and all working very well. This is the first time I hear of such an incident.
Are you using the KP-3 and cable designed for Oak and All in One DC?

Marty
Reminder, for support please follow this post: viewtopic.php?f=20&t=383
We can't "SEE" what you see...
Mesa, AZ
polaraligned
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Re: KP-3 Probe Woes

Post by polaraligned »

Well Marty, I know you mean no disrespect but you sound like Centroid who accused me of damaging the probe which I did NOT. I take full responsibility for my actions. This probe went right from the Centroid box into the spindle Sunday and was not crashed or damaged in any way. It was just returned to me from servicing because of the same issue. I take impeccable care of my tools and am the most neat and organized person going. I have spent countless hours over 40 years in electronic servicing.

Anyway, I am pretty sure I know the problem thanks to Swissi's incredible software. After my last post this morning I went into the shop and the probe miraculously started working fine just like it has the 2 days prior. I ran quite a few TripMap routines just now and they ran fine- but they also showed me what I believe is the problem with this probe.

First, just to clarify the issues that I had with ProbeApp DID NOT cause damage to the probe please see this 30 second video that I sent to Swissi to show him the issue I had with the app. You can see that the probe touches off and then faults due to the Servo version of CNC12 probe protection. Swissi as, explained above, made a revision so that TripMap runs correctly on Servo version. Thanks again Swissi for your great support!



Now, to what I believe is the probe's real problem. After seeing my maps and then looking at the one that Swissi posted of his KP-3 I can see that the average distance from the probe tripping to un-tripping is 8 times greater for Swissi's probe than mine. I believe that this probe is not correctly adjusted and just sits on the edge of tripping all the time.
IMG_5210.JPG
IMG_5211.JPG
.

I need someone at Centroid who will listen to me regarding this tripping issue. The person I spoke with this morning via email did not even know about Swissi's app even though it is pinned up in the Acorn subforum. My average un-trip is nearly non-existent compared to the KP-3 probe map posted above. This seems like an adjustment to me. The average un-trip is .0001" which is tiny. Look how close together my trip and un-trip lines are on the graph. These measurements are consistent between runs.
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Re: KP-3 Probe Woes

Post by cnckeith »

Please call for an RMA. We will repair and return.
Need support? READ THIS POST first. http://centroidcncforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=60&t=1043
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polaraligned
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Re: KP-3 Probe Woes

Post by polaraligned »

cnckeith wrote: Tue Jan 04, 2022 1:55 pm what happens when you use the standard Centroid Bore cycle? (not the probe app)
They work perfect just like the ProbeApp cycles do (when it is not sticking). The issue is sticking KP-3. There are no problems when the probe is not stuck.

As I stated above, TripMap shows that the trip to un-trip distance is nearly non-existent. The probe in my opinion just hovers on the edge of being tripped/un-tripped. Is there an adjustment for this?
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Re: KP-3 Probe Woes

Post by cnckeith »

I've asked Scott B. to call you with a fresh RMA, so we can take a look at it again. sorry for the hassle, the notes on the first repair show internal seat parts were crushed. (could be caused by a impact or over tightened)
(recently i've used a KP-3 for over 40 hours of fine digitizing on two different large projects with perfect no stick results)
Need support? READ THIS POST first. http://centroidcncforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=60&t=1043
All Acorn Documentation is located here: viewtopic.php?f=60&t=3397
Answers to common questions: viewforum.php?f=63
and here viewforum.php?f=61
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