Actualizacion EMCO VCM 300

All things related to Centroid Oak, Allin1DC, MPU11 and Legacy products

Moderator: cnckeith

Oscar6
Posts: 80
Joined: Thu Jun 24, 2021 1:55 pm
Acorn CNC Controller: No
Allin1DC CNC Controller: No
Oak CNC controller: Yes
CNC Control System Serial Number: A901029
DC3IOB: No
CNC12: Yes
CNC11: No
CPU10 or CPU7: No

Re: Actualizacion EMCO VCM 300

Post by Oscar6 »

Hello again, for me it would be very difficult to get the engine out of the machine because of its weight and the place where it is, it would be very complicated, if you have to remove it I will do it as a last resort. I have been looking for information about the motor and at the moment I am not getting anything from the manufacturer, if I have seen that they sell this motor (https://industry-pilot.de/de/Servomotor ... t-/p141049) which is very similar to mine, and here they say that it is a permanent magnet but it does not say the poles it has, but it is already something. In the delta c2000 + manual on page 11-27 it seems to say something that it can automatically calibrate the motor data, but I'm not sure. I will continue investigating to make sure, and thanks for your help ashesman, I have read your case and it is very similar to mine, let's see if we can find a solution, which would be the ideal, it all depends if this delta c2000 + drive can do the job, I hope that Yes. Thanks again.
ashesman
Posts: 395
Joined: Thu Dec 03, 2020 4:54 am
Acorn CNC Controller: No
Allin1DC CNC Controller: No
Oak CNC controller: Yes
CNC Control System Serial Number: none
DC3IOB: No
CNC12: Yes
CNC11: No
CPU10 or CPU7: No

Re: Actualizacion EMCO VCM 300

Post by ashesman »

I understand not wanting to pull your machine apart. However, you MUST know if this motor is an induction motor on PMM. Either way you will need to know the number of poles. The speed the motor turns for a given input frequency is determined by the number of poles. You probably wont damage anything by setting the driver to the wrong number of poles but eventually you will need to work it out.

Even if you don't remove the motor from the machine, you may need to remove a belt or coupling so you can spin it by hand. Another method is with an oscilloscope. PMM motors will generate a sine wave when turned with a frequency determined by the number of poles. You could also run the motor at say 20Hz, measure the RPM and then calculate the number of poles (but this requires at least getting the drive setup correctly in open loop mode first).

The motor drive will be able to auto tune for motor resistance, inductance and back EMF, but before you can do that you need to know motor type. Note that overcurrent on a PMM can demagnetize it permanently.

My advice on these types of projects is to take your time to understand what you are doing at each step. Don't rush or just try things to see what happens if you don't understand. Do your research and ask questions first. If you rush, things can get damaged. On these older machines, something like a damaged spindle motor could mean writing off the whole machine!
Oscar6
Posts: 80
Joined: Thu Jun 24, 2021 1:55 pm
Acorn CNC Controller: No
Allin1DC CNC Controller: No
Oak CNC controller: Yes
CNC Control System Serial Number: A901029
DC3IOB: No
CNC12: Yes
CNC11: No
CPU10 or CPU7: No

Re: Actualizacion EMCO VCM 300

Post by Oscar6 »

I will do what you tell me, I had planned this weekend to do a test, but if there is a risk of damaging the engine, I better not try anything, I will make several inquiries to see if any information about this engine can be clarified. The thing about connecting the oscilloscope if I can do it, I imagine that it will have to be connected to the phases of the motor, to remove the belt you have to remove the motor, I will look at it again, I do not know how much that motor will weigh but in the end I will try to remove it from the machine.
ashesman
Posts: 395
Joined: Thu Dec 03, 2020 4:54 am
Acorn CNC Controller: No
Allin1DC CNC Controller: No
Oak CNC controller: Yes
CNC Control System Serial Number: none
DC3IOB: No
CNC12: Yes
CNC11: No
CPU10 or CPU7: No

Re: Actualizacion EMCO VCM 300

Post by ashesman »

You may not have to remove the motor. Measure between any two of the phases and rotate the spindle if it will turn the motor.
martyscncgarage
Posts: 9912
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2017 12:01 pm
Acorn CNC Controller: Yes
Allin1DC CNC Controller: Yes
Oak CNC controller: No
CNC Control System Serial Number: none
DC3IOB: No
CNC12: Yes
CNC11: Yes
CPU10 or CPU7: Yes
Location: Mesa, AZ

Re: Actualizacion EMCO VCM 300

Post by martyscncgarage »

Many Emco spindle motors were high voltage DC motors.
Can you not take a picture of it and or the motor label and post here?
Reminder, for support please follow this post: viewtopic.php?f=20&t=383
We can't "SEE" what you see...
Mesa, AZ
Oscar6
Posts: 80
Joined: Thu Jun 24, 2021 1:55 pm
Acorn CNC Controller: No
Allin1DC CNC Controller: No
Oak CNC controller: Yes
CNC Control System Serial Number: A901029
DC3IOB: No
CNC12: Yes
CNC11: No
CPU10 or CPU7: No

Re: Actualizacion EMCO VCM 300

Post by Oscar6 »

Hello shesman, I will try to do the test with the oscilloscope by turning it by hand to see what I get.
Marty there is a picture of the motor board at the beginning of the topic, but I will upload it again and also put a picture of the old controller board that verifies that it is an AC motor, and another picture of the controller and motor schematic from the manual a see if it helps.
motor plate
IMG_20210704_214952.jpg
old control board
control motor.jpg
old motor and control schematic
esquema motor principal.jpg
ashesman
Posts: 395
Joined: Thu Dec 03, 2020 4:54 am
Acorn CNC Controller: No
Allin1DC CNC Controller: No
Oak CNC controller: Yes
CNC Control System Serial Number: none
DC3IOB: No
CNC12: Yes
CNC11: No
CPU10 or CPU7: No

Re: Actualizacion EMCO VCM 300

Post by ashesman »

I cant translate, but in the schematic it shows two sets of encoder signals. Usually people call these "Encoder" and "Hall" signals. Only a PMM would usually have Hall signals. The Hall set, actually called Commutation signals allows the driver to know where the motor rotor is before it starts turning so it can start motor rotation nicely. Initial motor position cannot be determined from the encoder until after it has turned enough to find the index (Z) signal.

Proper servo drives will use commutation signals but most VFD encoder cards don't use commutation signals and instead have their own electronic pole position determination feature that usually makes a squeak sound as it orients the motor before starting it.

Because of the terminology in the diagram, I cant be sure which set is encoder or commutation signals. Commonly commutation signals are labelled U,#U, V,#V, W,#W to match the motor winding labelling.

It looks to be around 12kW nominal power, quite a big motor! What is your VFDs nominal an maximum current rating?

It really looks like the motor is a PMM as is common on proper CNC machine spindles but I would still be checking the motor type manually though.
Oscar6
Posts: 80
Joined: Thu Jun 24, 2021 1:55 pm
Acorn CNC Controller: No
Allin1DC CNC Controller: No
Oak CNC controller: Yes
CNC Control System Serial Number: A901029
DC3IOB: No
CNC12: Yes
CNC11: No
CPU10 or CPU7: No

Re: Actualizacion EMCO VCM 300

Post by Oscar6 »

Good, if you are right, both the spindle and the xyz motors have two encoders, one with signals a, b, z that I already have the pins located and the other is like a coil with three sensors, I don't know what it is, I think They are to know the absolute position, since the motors are connected with belts and the pulleys are of different diameter, the variator I have is 15kw but if you look at the motor plate, it says 11kw and 7.5kw for that part there is no trouble. This weekend I did some tests with an oscilloscope but it was very complicated with the motor put in the machine, because the ratio of the motor to the spindle is not 1: 1, so it was necessary to rotate less than one turn of the spindle for the engine turn one turn and it is a bit hard to turn, it was not very exact but something could be done, I am going to put some photos to see what you think, at some signal I passed a little turn but most of them made an almost exact turn .
phase 1 signal one turn
2.jpg
phase 2 signal two laps paused
3.jpg
phase 3 signal 2 turns in a row
6.jpg
I do not understand much but it seems that there are five magnets, once they seemed 6 but most of them are five as the manual rotation is not very exact, it could be five poles, let's see what you tell me.
ashesman
Posts: 395
Joined: Thu Dec 03, 2020 4:54 am
Acorn CNC Controller: No
Allin1DC CNC Controller: No
Oak CNC controller: Yes
CNC Control System Serial Number: none
DC3IOB: No
CNC12: Yes
CNC11: No
CPU10 or CPU7: No

Re: Actualizacion EMCO VCM 300

Post by ashesman »

I don't think we can tell the number of poles from the scope pictures. You would need to rotate it at a known constant speed and measure the frequency. 8 (4 pair) and 10 (5 pair) poles are common. I drive the spindle with a battery drill but not sure if that would work on that big motor.

It is a very small signal at 10mV. But it does appear to be generating voltage so suggests it's a PMM motor.

It is your call but you could set up the VFD for PMM motor and give it a test run. Make sure to enter all the motor data you know. Then run an auto tune. Start in open loop mode so the encoder is out of the equation. Introduce the encoder later so you are solving one problem at a time. Always watch the current on the VFD. PMM motors do run a base current with no load so you probably won't see really low currents.

Just take it slowly and you should be ok.
Oscar6
Posts: 80
Joined: Thu Jun 24, 2021 1:55 pm
Acorn CNC Controller: No
Allin1DC CNC Controller: No
Oak CNC controller: Yes
CNC Control System Serial Number: A901029
DC3IOB: No
CNC12: Yes
CNC11: No
CPU10 or CPU7: No

Re: Actualizacion EMCO VCM 300

Post by Oscar6 »

Hello again, the current is low 10 mv because the spin was slow, when it spun faster the current shot up and I thought it was easier to make a slow reading that's why the voltage is so small. I do not know if I can do something with the little data on the motor plate, I do not know the poles of the motor and I do not know if the variator will be able to obtain them. What I can do is rotate with a drill and take the signal of a phase and at the same time take the signal from the encoder in the z signal that would say each turn of the motor, it may thus be clearer what happens in the motor and get the poles out there. I have also made some inquiries to the engine manufacturer but they are on vacation I will wait a bit, but I could continue doing tests. Or I could take a risk and go testing with the variator at low revs as you say, what happens, now I have many doubts and I don't know what to do. I'm going to think this weekend whether to connect the drive and do tests, but I don't know how many poles to put on the drive to begin with. Looking at the motor plate, what would you tell me, with what data would you do it?
Post Reply