Upgrading 1984 Wells Index 820 with Allin1DC

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Chevy427z
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Re: Upgrading 1984 Wells Index 820 with Allin1DC

Post by Chevy427z »

I already ordered one of the ones you listed earlier. It was a great price. I'm sure I can resell that somewhere along the line and I'll wait to hear back from you on the right one.

You said "So you need to measure the higher DC voltage that powers the servos as I described above. It will be somewhere in the 100 to 160 VDC range."

That will take some doing as I've already started disassembling the old controller and I'm not exactly sure what I'm looking at. I tried to do it in steps to avoid a situation like this. I'll see what I can find.

edited: I just reread what you said about measuring across the capacitor. I did that earler, hence how I determined what was driving my motors (24VDC) If I'm understanding properly, I should be finding something higher, like the 100V you mentioned. I'll keep looking.

Roger on the 12 amps.

Thank you for the help!

Mark
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polaraligned
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Re: Upgrading 1984 Wells Index 820 with Allin1DC

Post by polaraligned »

Well, I only listed the AC coil contactors as that was what was brought up by you. You were looking for a contactor to substitute for the Centroid one which has an AC coil...sorry about that. It is not easy when I don't have the "big picture" in my mind of exactly what you are replacing or not. You can always use small 24v transformer to power the contactor, so it is not a big deal.

And there is no way that 24V was driving your motors. That 24v was used in the existing controller for driving relays, limit switch inputs, etc. 24v is a very common voltage in industrial equipment as a control voltage as it is a lot more immune to noise than say 5 volts.

The motor drive power is in the 100-160v range as I mentioned. Trace the power wires from the motors back and see where they go. There should be a large capacitor across them. When old control is powered up, the high DC voltage will appear across that capacitor. If you can't do that, you need to measure the AC output of the transformer that was driving them (it feeds the rectifier/capacitor filter which converts it to DC). Ultimately, you need to reuse this power supply (unless you are purchasing or making a new one), so you will need to figure the old power supply out. If you power it up, be careful as that large capacitor can hold a charge for a while, even though it should have a bleeder resistor across it.

If I had very good quality pictures, I should be able to pick out your power supply.
martyscncgarage
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Re: Upgrading 1984 Wells Index 820 with Allin1DC

Post by martyscncgarage »

I've used these before.
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Chevy427z
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Re: Upgrading 1984 Wells Index 820 with Allin1DC

Post by Chevy427z »

Another embarrassing post by me. I had posted pictures of my servo motor power supply back on page 4 of this thread and Polar tried to explain it to me then. I wasn't comprehending at the time, but I am understanding better now.

I removed the power supply shortly after that picture was taken to make room for the new AllinOne. Glad I took pictures. I tried to reconnect it last night as there were only a few wires cut to remove it. I'm only getting millivolts across the large capacitor so I am missing something. I expect to be able to spend more time with it this weekend. I also need to figure out what the big transformer in the picture is doing and where it's power comes from.

Been watching Marty's videos about wiring the AllInOne over and over and that's making good sense.

I labeled some important areas A, B, C, and D, to make it easier to talk about.

A - is where the power goes out to the servo motors. Not getting anything measurable there just yet.

B - is where 110 VAC comes in. That's working as it powers the two fans on the bottom.

C - is where I *think* power comes from the transformer up above, nothing to measure there, either.

D - is where my 24VDC comes from, that's working fine.
Attachments
original marked up.jpg
20210729_171012 marked up.jpg
20210729_170733.jpg
20210729_170615.jpg
20210729_170603.jpg
20210729_170539.jpg
20210729_170523.jpg
20210417_174404.jpg
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martyscncgarage
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Re: Upgrading 1984 Wells Index 820 with Allin1DC

Post by martyscncgarage »

First, I personally would not reuse any of that power supply except for the transformer.
I would not reuse D, modern 24VDC power supplies are inexpensive.
I would not reuse the capacitor the "bridge" , I would replace them with the Cap and Bridge Combo from Centroid, AC in DC out:
https://www.centroidcnc.com/centroid_di ... nents.html
That Cap Bridge Unit has a new large capacitor, a new bridge rectifier, an inrush surge suppressor and a bleed resistor built into one.

Could you please take a picture of the top of the GE transformer next to that 3 phase step down transformer you have marked as "C"
Are you CERTAIN that the Servo power supply was fed by the larger 3 phase step down transformer?

Marty
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martyscncgarage
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Re: Upgrading 1984 Wells Index 820 with Allin1DC

Post by martyscncgarage »

I assume you got no schematics with the machine? (I can't remember if you mentioned you did or didn't)
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Chevy427z
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Re: Upgrading 1984 Wells Index 820 with Allin1DC

Post by Chevy427z »

martyscncgarage wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 9:31 am First, I personally would not reuse any of that power supply except for the transformer.
I would not reuse D, modern 24VDC power supplies are inexpensive.
I would not reuse the capacitor the "bridge" , I would replace them with the Cap and Bridge Combo from Centroid, AC in DC out:
https://www.centroidcnc.com/centroid_di ... nents.html
That Cap Bridge Unit has a new large capacitor, a new bridge rectifier, an inrush surge suppressor and a bleed resistor built into one.

Could you please take a picture of the top of the GE transformer next to that 3 phase step down transformer you have marked as "C"
Are you CERTAIN that the Servo power supply was fed by the larger 3 phase step down transformer?

Marty
I am taking your advice to heart.

I am attaching another pic, I think this is the one you're asking about. I had a shot of the top of the big one to the left (I think you called that a 3 phase) but I don't have it on this work computer. I hope it's clear enough for you to read. I can get another one later if need be.

Unfortunately, I do not have the original drawings. I even contacted the guy who invented the Sharnoa controller 10 years ago when I first bought it, who laughed at me as he hadn't touched those machines in decades.

edited: Fairly certain that the Servo power supply was fed by the larger 3 phase step down transformer. There were only five wires that I cut to remove the power supply and they were easy to relocate and reattach.

Mark
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Re: Upgrading 1984 Wells Index 820 with Allin1DC

Post by martyscncgarage »

No, the GE transformer appears to be a 220 to 110 step down transformer.
I went pouring through your messages and I could not find anything. First, before you took the control apart, did you put a DC meter across the large blue capacitor to see what your DC Buss voltage was? I seem to remember there were no labels on your DC Brush Servo motors?

At first glance to me anyway, that large 3 core transformer is a 3 phase isolation transformer. I do not know how it was wired from the LINE source in the cabinet, nor do I know how your other transformers were wired. I would have back tracked from the existing DC Servo power supply assembly, the one with the large blue capacitor and followed those wires back to their source. That would have told me which transformer fed it. It is unlikely that it was simply rectified 110VAC but its possible. It is also possible that your DC Servo power supply us using 3 phase input. Again, following the AC wires back to their source would have provided some clues.

At this point, you need to know what the DC Servo Buss voltage is supposed to be, that will supply your DC power to All in One DC and subsequently your DC Servo motors.

Marty
Reminder, for support please follow this post: viewtopic.php?f=20&t=383
We can't "SEE" what you see...
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Chevy427z
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Re: Upgrading 1984 Wells Index 820 with Allin1DC

Post by Chevy427z »

martyscncgarage wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 12:05 pm No, the GE transformer appears to be a 220 to 110 step down transformer.
I went pouring through your messages and I could not find anything. First, before you took the control apart, did you put a DC meter across the large blue capacitor to see what your DC Buss voltage was? I seem to remember there were no labels on your DC Brush Servo motors?

At first glance to me anyway, that large 3 core transformer is a 3 phase isolation transformer. I do not know how it was wired from the LINE source in the cabinet, nor do I know how your other transformers were wired. I would have back tracked from the existing DC Servo power supply assembly, the one with the large blue capacitor and followed those wires back to their source. That would have told me which transformer fed it. It is unlikely that it was simply rectified 110VAC but its possible. It is also possible that your DC Servo power supply us using 3 phase input. Again, following the AC wires back to their source would have provided some clues.

At this point, you need to know what the DC Servo Buss voltage is supposed to be, that will supply your DC power to All in One DC and subsequently your DC Servo motors.

Marty
Had I known what I was doing, I would have done exactly as you describe, checking voltages before disassembly. I know that now. I was careful to not rip out too much, just enough to allow me to move forward. I should have some time this weekend to back track what supplies those transformers.

As far as labels on the motors, all I could find was a simple sticker with "MT 5330-008DF-1181" made by EG&G Torque systems. I knew that it was a long shot asking in here if anyone recognized them. I also wrote to EG&G asking them, and have not heard back.

I'll be back! Thank you for the help!

Mark
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Re: Upgrading 1984 Wells Index 820 with Allin1DC

Post by polaraligned »

There is a EG&G MT-5330 on Ebay right now. It has a label on it that says 90v. I can't find any other info on this motor. Not the exact same complete model number, but it might be a safe value (90v) to shoot for.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/163178864720

If you could spend a little time this weekend tracing out the power is supplied to the motors, that would be helpful. Finding the DC servo supply voltage would be huge to moving forward, though if you can't get that voltage, I would err on the safe side and shoot for a dc voltage of 100v or less to drive these servos.

The last picture is a transformer that drops 240/480v to 120v. That is a common piece or iron in these machines to get 120vac from the incoming 3 phase to drive the items that need 120v such as the display. The 3 phase transformer is trash. There are no other transfomers in there?

As for the 24 vdc power supply, you can use it. It is a vintage linear series regulating supply. They work fine and are easily serviceable. You also might consider a new Meanwell 24v switching power supply. They are much more compact and clip right onto a DIN rail. You can get new ones for $50 to $80 range. Maybe less, but stay away from ones that are sold on Ebay by import companies as they might not be genuine. Do you have 24v air solenoids on this machine? You need to consider that when figuring out the amperage that the 24v supply needs to provide.

The bridge rectifier/cap combo that Marty points to is an easy way out and saves you from digging thru that mess they have there. You just need the proper AC voltage to feed it so that your output DC voltage is correct for your motors. You can always use a new torrid transformer from Antek to supply the Centroid rectifier combo with the right AC voltage. Doing the above would make the install cleaner because you don't have to mess with existing.

All easily done neat and cleanly with new components if you care to spend the extra money on them.

One step at at time. First try to figure out the DC voltage that was being supplied to the servos and we will take it from there.
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