I have been researching controller retrofit options for my Mazak Impulse 30. I think I have settled on the Oak controller as the most suitable. Now I need to work out all the other components I am going to need to make it all work. The machine is currently running and fully function but has an almost unusable 48k of program memory, upgrading seems to be not an option. It cannot do drip feeding and even macro programming has been disabled.
The control system on the machine is all Mazak designed and none of the electronics are reusable. I am not on an unlimited budget and would like to reuse the servos, limits switches, wiring etc. Please help me list the parts I would need for a retrofit. So far I have:
Oak controller
Pro software upgrade
Wireless MPG
Control panel (buttons etc)
3 x servo drives - but which ones???
spindle servo drive ???
associated cables etc
My struggle is around finding suitable (and affordable) servo and spindle drives. And also the things I don't know yet!
I am going to hit you with a lot of information about the machine but maybe it will help people advise on suitable components:
3 Axis (would like the option available to add a fourth in future)
Machine power rating is 7500 VA 200V three phase (Japanese)
Has Ac servo motors on all axis. Panasonic 750W on X and Y, braked 1kW on Z. I have all the servo parameters such as resistance, inductance, phases, encoder counts etc for the servos as are given in the current machine controller. Servos have A,B,Z,U,V,W encoder signals and thermal protect signal. Motors are 200VAC three phase servo.
Rapid speed 24 m/min with a 10mm pith ball screw on all axis (so 2400 RPM).
Spindle is servo driven and must orient for tool change and rigid tapping. Looks just like a servo motor, has encoder. 6000 RPM max. 1.5kW continuous, 1.9kW peak.
The machine can currently do rigid taping and threading at up to 4000 RPM, I would like to keep that capability.
Has two 5pc rack style tool change racks that are actuated by pneumatic rams. One on left, one on right. The tool is released from the spindle mechanically by the Y axis travelling back past its normal soft limit to a preset position.
To operate the tool change, a few M codes are used to actuate the rams and wait on the limit switches, the rest of the tool change is achieved entirely using a G code tool change macro program. Tool changing is not done at the home position and is a different position for every tool. Note that tool changing requires travelling back beyond the normal Y soft limit, currently an M code disables these limits during tool change.
X,Y,Z limit switches fitted for one end of each axis. Other end of axis requires soft limit.
I would like the future option to add auto tool height setting and touch probe.
Also the ability to add custom buttons or macros to do things such as return home, manual tool release etc.
I am an electronics and embedded software engineer and have a background in fabrication so can do installation, PLC programming etc. myself. I have all wiring diagrams and tech information for this machine. Its a great wee machine as is, but cant do any sort of complex profiling due to memory limits.
What is your anticipated budget? What do you think the machine would be worth after its retrofitted?
What do you do with this machine? Business? Make money with it? Hobby? Tinker and learn?
Is that spindle cooled?
What brand are the axis drives and spindle drive? Model number?
How does the tool changer operate? What drives it? What sensors does it have?
Please post actual pictures of the machine and high resolution photos of the cabinet.
Personally, making XYZ move is the easy part. Spindle motor, spindle drive, spindle orient and tool changer add complexities and cost.
If it were me, I would research the spindle motor and spindle drive first to figure out what my options are first. That would determine whether or not it is cost effective to retrofit. It might be to you depending on its intended use and your budget....
Marty
Reminder, for support please follow this post: viewtopic.php?f=20&t=383
We can't "SEE" what you see...
Mesa, AZ
Thanks for your reply. To answer some of your questions:
What is your anticipated budget? What do you think the machine would be worth after its retrofitted?
- I bought the machine for scrap value as it apparently had broken electronics. Turned out to be OK and it is fully functional. It just has really limited program memory and an annoying software bug that prevents it doing arcs in the XZ plane without going haywire! It is probably worth at most $15000 USD to sell here. I paid $1500USD for it. I am torn as selling it plus the retrofit cost could probably buy me a Tormach which would probably meet all my needs. It works really well but has only 48k program memory.
What do you do with this machine? Business? Make money with it? Hobby? Tinker and learn?
- It is in my workshop at home. I use it only for hobby stuff. I have some projects I would like to build and sell but would be only to my mates at no profit! I want to make small aluminum things with 3D curvy profiles like brake levers and foot pegs.
Is that spindle cooled?
- No, the spindle is fan cooled. It is only 1.5kW, 6000 RPM. It is a Panasonic AC servo motor with encoder.
What brand are the axis drives and spindle drive? Model number?
- The axis and spindle drives are Mazak proprietary electronics and can not be interfaced with an aftermarket controller. The servo motors are Panasonic 0.75kW 200V AC servo motors with encoders.
How does the tool changer operate? What drives it? What sensors does it have?
- The tool change has two racks of five tools. They are air actuated by solenoids. Each side has an in and out solenoid and an out limit switch. The tool change on the machine is completely done in g code by a macro that is called when a Tx g code is issued. Thee release of the tool from the spindle is mechanical when the spindle travels far enough back in the Y direction. You can see one working in this video My machine does not have the pallet changer.
Please post actual pictures of the machine and high resolution photos of the cabinet.
- I have added some pictures. I can add specific ones if required.
Personally, making XYZ move is the easy part. Spindle motor, spindle drive, spindle orient and tool changer add complexities and cost.
- Yes, I think I have the drive sorted. The Centroid ACDC can drive the servos but is expensive. Also DMM can drive them with an encoder adapter they make.
If it were me, I would research the spindle motor and spindle drive first to figure out what my options are first. That would determine whether or not it is cost effective to retrofit. It might be to you depending on its intended use and your budget....
- Working on spindle control. Looks like any servo driver that can do 6000 RPM could drive it.
Well it looks like a nice machine and frankly MUCH better than a Tormach!
I would spend the money to refit it than buy a Tormach. In the long run you'd save money.
Oak and DMM or ESTUN AC Servos on all 3 axis
You will need a PLC1616ADD I/O Expansion board.
I would replace the spindle motor with a 5hp 3phase motor
You will need a VFD with spindle orient (Marc, cncsnw or Tblough might give you some suggestions)
1000ppr line driver/differential encoder belted at 1:1 to the spindle
You need to very well document each step of the tool change process. You need to find all the sensors
Drawbar Up
Drawbar down
Tool 1
Is there a tool counter sensor? How does the machine currently keep track of what tools are in which magazine? How many tools are in each magazine?
You say each is magazine moves with pneumatics. How does the machine know which tool to stop at. What keeps the tool precisely positioned?
How do the pneumatics work?
You should retain Marc Leonard to help you understand the Centroid PLC. He is VERY experienced LONG time Centroid user/tech/dealer and former employee of Centroid. He knows the PLC well and is VERY fair with his rates.
Do us all a favor, if you move forward, document the build here. Create a google photo album and post up pictures.
Marc or Tom, do either of you have any suggestions on how you would approach this build? Let's keep him away from the Tormachs
Marty
Reminder, for support please follow this post: viewtopic.php?f=20&t=383
We can't "SEE" what you see...
Mesa, AZ
I've used ABB ACS355 VFDs in the past with very good results. With the encoder option, they will handle the spindle orient when the motor stops. Baldor IDNM (Inverter ready - need to add your own encoder) or ZDNM (with encoder) give you a 0-6000 rpm motor. You COULD belt that 1:1 to the spindle and use the same encoder for the encoder input on the Oak, but I recommend a separate spindle encoder for a couple of reasons. First, if you want to use only one encoder you have to belt it 1:1 and you have to use a cogged belt of some kind. Those are noisy especially at higher rpms and do induce vibrations. They are also stiffer than the alternatives and require larger bend radii and therefore heavier (more inertia) pulleys.
I prefer poly-V (micro-v belts) for the spindle drive. They handle high surface speeds, and are extremely quite and are inherently balanced, but since they can slip and you cannot control the pitch diameter of the pulleys exactly, you need an encoder directly on the spindle for the Oak encoder input. Going with a separate encoder input also gives you the flexibility of running a gear ratio between the motor and spindle if desired.
If you ever examine any of the PLC programs running on Centroid controls, you'll see Marc's name at the top as one of the original programmers
Cheers,
Tom
Confidence is the feeling you have before you fully understand the situation.
I have CDO. It's like OCD, but the letters are where they should be.
If you can find an inexpensive (relatively speaking) used Yaskawa spindle motor, I would highly recommend it. My Tree J-425 has an incredible Yaskawa spindle motor with encoder. It is designed for spindle use of course. Coupled with a Hitachi SJ-P1, it will do orient, etc.
That machine with a Centroid control is in a completely different league from a Tormach. Well worth the investment in my opinion.
Thanks everyone for your advice. I decided today that I would try run the machine under a bit of load and take some big cuts and so forth. I wanted to get a feel for what the mechanics of the machine are actually capable of. Before investing in the upgrade I wanted to know that I had a good starting base. I at least wanted to prove to myself that it could do better than a Tormach!
Well, what a waste of a day that was. I kept getting spindle faults just for no apparent reason, even when not cutting. After some digging around I found a crappy connection on the spindle control signals. It would make the spindle fault when you wiggled it. I cleaned it all up and that came right.
But then every time I tried to take a cut that has vibration, or a high speed tool change the piece of ship spindle faults. So, long story short, I am over the Mazak controller and am going ahead with the retrofit. It is worth nothing with a fault like that so, decision made... I never did get to fully load it up though!
-----------------
So, on with the conversion questions. So, I have been in discussion with DMM, they said a DYN4 with an encoder adapter they make and their Centroid cable gives me a plug and play solution for the servo motors. Price is one third of a Centroid ACDC without cabling so fits my budget. I also looked at Delta servo and motor combos which come in at marginally more expensive but include new motors an cables which means I could bump the motor size up a little.
So as you guys have been discussing, it really just leaves the spindle to sort and accessory control. I am super keen to not replace the spindle motor, especially with pulley and belt arrangements. This machine has a 1.5kW/1.9kW 6000RPM AC servo direct driving the spindle. I believe it is fit for purpose, already installed, cabled and has a 2500PPR encoder built in to it. Can accelerate to full RPM in fractions of a second and change direction super fast. It is smooth and quiet. DMM said that its power rating is beyond what the DYN4 can handle but otherwise I could use a servo drive to drive it. Maybe the ACDC would be suitable, I haven't asked yet. Centroid said they can do either index signal or 0-10V control which most AC servo drivers will accept. I will go lookup the driver options you have mentioned too.
So, on to the accessories, most of which are trivial...
- Coolant pump - Already has relay, thermal cutout etc so just needs a driver signal
- Tool air curtain - Output driver for pneumatic solenoid
- Cutting air blow - Output driver for pneumatic solenoid
- Door open signal - Input from two hall sensors in series
- X, Y, Z home switches - Inputs from mechanical switches. There are no over travel limit switches
- Spindle cooling fan (not currently controlled, runs all the time, but I want to control it)
- Electrical cabinet cooling fan (not currently controlled but I want it to be)
- Left tool changer out solenoid - Output driver for pneumatic solenoid
- Left tool changer in solenoid - Output driver for pneumatic solenoid
- Left tool changer is out switch - Input from mechanical switch
- Right tool changer out solenoid - Output driver for pneumatic solenoid
- Right tool changer in solenoid - Output driver for pneumatic solenoid
- Right tool changer is out switch - Input from mechanical switch
- Z axis servo brake - Output to servo motor brake (may be driven by servo drive?)
So, how the tool changer works, refer to the attached pictures.
- The tool clamp/unclamp is mechanical. One of the pictures below shows an arm that pushes against a stop when the spindle travels all the way back in the Y direction
- There are two racks of five tools, so ten in total. One picture shows both racks. In that picture the right rack is retracted and the left rack is out.
- The machine has no sensors to tell what tools are in the rack. It just remembers the current tool loaded into the spindle.
- The machine has M codes to extend and retract each tool rack
- The machine has no sensors to tell what tools are loaded
- The machine is a a gantry style, so Y moves the column back and forward, not the table
- Tools are numbered 1-5, 6-10
- The tool change is completed entirely by the movement of the column and spindle. Here is the process to change from T1 to T7:
- Program or user runs T3 g code
- Machine calls sub program 9999 to perform the tool change. It is a macro program so it receives 7 as an argument
- Spindle is stopped, coolant is turned off, some house keeping G codes like remembering absolute/incremental mode
- It needs to put T1 away
- Extend the left tool rack and wait until its limit switch says it is all the way out (M code does this)
- Move to the correct Z height so the tool holder slot is aligned with the spring tool holder
- Move to the correct X position in front of tool slot 3 (so there are five different possible X positions)
- Orient the spindle
- Disable soft limits (there is a M code for this)
- Move back (positive) in Y until the tool is in the rack, at the same time this causes the tool release lever to be actuated, releasing the tool
- Turn the spindle air curtain on
- Move up in Z until above the tool holder
- Close the left tool slide
- Now it needs to fetch tool 7 (we are already in position above the tool we just put away)
- Open the right tool slide and wait for it to be fully open
- We are already at Z height above the tool and at correct Y depth to unlock the tool release
- Move in X to be exactly above the new tool 7
- Move down in Z onto the new tool
- Turn spindle air curtain back off
- Move negative in Y, pulling the tool out of the rack and at the same time the tool release arm moves away from its stop, locking the tool in
- Hide right tool rack
- Tool change is complete, turn soft limits back on
- Tidy up house keeping g codes, return to main program
Please let me know if that doesn't make sense. If its not clear, I could put up a video of a tool change in slow motion.
I don't know what sort of functionality Centroid offer to configure this. It only requires four output drivers and two input signals, the rest is done by axis movement. The machine has a big PLC program in it (about 30 odd pages of ladder logic!). This takes care of things like turning the tool rack M code into a solenoid actuation and wait for tool rack out signal etc.
I am keen to have ago at PLC programming. I write code most days as a job...
For reference the program 9999 that performs this is shown below. I added some comments so it makes sense.
(IMP-30A Tool change macro)
IF [#1005 EQ 1] GOTO510 ; (If bit is set in some IO register then skip tool change)
(M900 = ??? Stop Tx g code calling this macro?)
(M191 = ??? Disable soft limits maybe?)
M900 M191 ;
(M3 = Spindle start forward, speed = 0. i.e. stop the spindle)
M3 S0 ;
(If tool number greater than 10 then skip tool change)
IF [#20 GE 11] GOTO500 ;
(If tool number = #4120 (Current tool number) then skip tool change)
IF [#20 EQ #4120] GOTO 500 ;
(New tool number is different from current tool number, going to do a tool change, do preparations)
(Y value for tool in holder)
(#12030 = user param L030 = 159000 (159mm))
#8 = #[12030] / #13 ; (#[12030] = get the value of #12030)
(Z value for spindle lowered on to tool)
(#12031 = user param L031 = -94000 (-94mm))
#9 = #[12031] / #13 ;
(Y value for position to slide tool out of holder to)
#10 = -3000. / #13 ; (#10 = -3 for metric, -0.118 for inch)
(Z value for spindle raised above tool)
#11 = -18000. / #13 ; (#11 = -18 for metric, -0.708 for inch)
(FIX = Cutting away any decimal digits (floor))
(Generate the M code for the tool slide that needs to be closed for current and new tool, M15 or M17)
(#1 = which tool slide to show for current tool = 15 for tools 1-5, 17 for tools 6-10)
#1 = 15 + FIX[#4120 / 6] *2 ;
(#2 = which tool slide to show for new tool = 15 for tools 1-5, 17 for tools 6-10)
#2 = 15 + FIX[#20 / 6] *2 ;
(M16 M18 = Left tool open slide and right tool open slide (hide all tools))
(M193 = Selection of spindle as the C-axis (Servo On))
M16 M18 M193 ;
#3 = #4003 ; (#3 = #4003 = Absolute/Incremental programming G90/91 : 90/91)
(G40 = Tool radius compensation off)
(G80 = Cancel canned cycle)
(G90 = Absolute programming)
(G50.1 = Mirror image OFF)
(M90 = Mirror image OFF)
G40 G80 G90 G50.1 M90 ;
(If current tool number = 0, skip tool unloading)
IF [#4120 EQ 0] GOTO200 ;
(N100 - Unload tool from spindle)
(#7 = X position to unload current tool to)
(#7 = value of register 12000 for tool 1, 12001 for tool 2, etc...)
(#12000 = user param L000 = -336500 = -336.5 mm)
(#12001 = user param L001 = -276500 = -276.5 mm)
(#12002 = user param L002 = -216000 = -216 mm)
(#12003 = user param L003 = -156500 = -156.5 mm)
(#12004 = user param L004 = -96500 = -96.5 mm)
(#12005 = user param L005 = -332000 = -332 mm)
(#12006 = user param L006 = -272000 = -272 mm)
(#12007 = user param L007 = -212000 = -212 mm)
(#12008 = user param L008 = -152000 = -152 mm)
(#12009 = user param L009 = -92000 = -92 mm)
N100 #7 = #[11999+#4120] / #13 ;
(G31 = Skip function)
G31 ;
(G53.1 = Tool axis direction control)
(G49 = Tool Length Offset/Cancellation)
(X = (as above), Y = -3 Z = -94 Locate tool in front of holder)
(M#1 = M15 or M17 for left or right tool slide (show left or right tools))
(M19 = spindle stop oriented)
G53.1 G49 X#7 Y#10 Z#9 M#1 M19 ;
(G53 = Machine coordinate system)
(Y = 159 Move tool back into holder)
G53 Y#8
(G53.1 = Tool axis direction control)
(Z = -18 - Raise spindle up off tool)
(Set tool number to zero as is unloaded)
(M10 = tool air blow off (air is on))
G53.1 Z#11 T0 M10 ;
(N200 - Load new tool into spindle)
(If new tool number is zero, skip loading new tool)
N200 IF [#20 EQ 0] GOTO 300 ;
(Load new tool)
(#12 = X position to load new tool froml)
(#12 = value of register 12000 for tool 1, 12001 for tool 2, see above)
#12 = #[11999+#20] / #13 ;
(G31 = Skip function)
G31 ;
(G53.1 = Tool axis direction control)
(G49 = Tool Length Offset/Cancellation)
(Z = -18 Height above tool)
(M19 = spindle stop oriented)
G53.1 G49 Z#11 M19 ;
(if new tool is in same slide as current tool, skip changing slides)
IF [#1 EQ #2] GOTO250 ;
(G53.1 = Tool axis direction control)
(X = ?, Y = ? Move to above new tool)
(M#2 = show new tool slide)
(M[#1+1] = hide current tool slide)
G53.1 X#12 Y#8 M#2 M[#1+1] ;
(G53.1 = Tool axis direction control)
(X = (as above) Y = 159 Move to above new tool)
(M#2 = show slide for new tool (may already be shown))
N250 G53.1 X#12 Y#8 M#2 ;
(G53 = Machine coordinate system)
(Z = -94 Lower spindle onto tool)
(M10 = tool air blow off (air is on))
G53 Z#9 M10 ;
(N300 finish up after unloading, loading or unloading/loading tool)
(G53.1 = Tool axis direction control)
(Y = -3 Slide tool out of holder)
(T#20 = set tool number to new selected tool)
(M11 = tool air blow on (air is off))
(M194 = Selection of spindle as the milling spindle (Servo Off))
N300 G53.1 Y#10 T#20 M11 M194 ;
(G#3 = restore G90 or G91)
(M16 M18 Left tool open slide and right tool open slide (hide all tools))
G#3 M16 M18 ;
(Tool change done)
N500 T#20 ; (Set tool number to selected)
(Cleanup)
(M192 = ??? Enable soft limits maybe?)
N510 M192 ;
M3 S0 ; (Spindle start forward speed = 0)
M5 ; (Spindle stop)
(M901 = ??? Make Tx g code call this macro?)
(M99 = subprogram end)
M901 M99 ;
M30 ; (End of program, with return to program top)
%
Can you get to the spindle motor to get a picture of its label?
I wish you luck on the conversion. Persevere, it should be a nice machine when done.
Marty
Reminder, for support please follow this post: viewtopic.php?f=20&t=383
We can't "SEE" what you see...
Mesa, AZ
Hi Marty, I have been watching your youtube videos, great stuff, I have learnt a lot!
I tried getting to the name plate on the spindle but it would have meant a big disassembly job. I could see it with a borescope, but it was too dirty to read! I got the part number of the spindle motor (MSM152B2A) from the Mazak parts manual. I couldn't find any original datasheet for the motor, probably due to its age but it seems to be very similar to the MSME series motor https://industrial.panasonic.com/conten ... ctlg_e.pdf. According to the settings in the Mazak controller it has a 2500 pulse encoder too. It pretty much looks identical on the outside to the axis motors but is a little longer. I found the power rating diagram in the owners manual. 1.5kW is continuous rating, 1.6kW for 30 min and 1.9kW for 10 min.
After some great tech support from DMM and Centroid, I have decided to run with four DYN4 AC servo drives. They are plenty adequate for the axis motors. DMM make an encoder converter to allow the 2500 PPM to interface to the DYN4. The DYN4 has a max power rating of 1.8kW so slightly less than the motors maximum rating. I will try run one for a while and see how it goes. If it turns out the spindle is under powered, I will look at an upgrade then.
So, some decisions made. Now just finalising some last questions with Centroid and should be good to start buying parts.
What are peoples opinions on using the Centroid button panel vs just using a full touch screen solution? I love all the buttons on the machine at the moment, there is one for everything! Even with the Centroid button panel, I will probably still miss the convenience of all those buttons! I am going to get a wireless MPG so that covers a lot of the buttons.
This machine is quite small so nowhere to mount a big tele to it, but I will work something out. It needs to be able to be tucked away when not in use.
