Upgrading 1984 Wells Index 820 with Allin1DC

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martyscncgarage
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Re: Upgrading 1984 Wells Index 820 with Allin1DC

Post by martyscncgarage »

Here is what the Applications Engineer Recommended for DC motor load:
Pricing is a little outdated.

XTCF032C10T + XTCEXFAC11 DILMP32-10 (24VAC) + DILA-XHI11 220VDC @ 32A (Must split load across 2 contacts)
XTCF032C10TD + XTCEXFAC11 DILMP32-10 (24VDC) + DILA-XHI11 220VDC @ 32A (Must split load across 2 contacts)
XTCF045C10T + XTCEXFAC11 DILMP45-10 (24VAC) + DILA-XHI11 220VDC @ 45A (Centroid Replacement) (Must split load across 2 contacts) $139.00 $139.00 ($118.00 + $21.00 for AC coil)
XTCF045C10TD + XTCEXFAC11 DILMP45-10 (24VDC) + DILA-XHI11 220VDC @ 45A (Centroid Replacement) (Must split load across 2 contacts) $153.00

They can be purchased from KMPARTS.COM. The 45C is the equivalent to the one Centroid Uses.

Marty
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Re: Upgrading 1984 Wells Index 820 with Allin1DC

Post by tblough »

On my machines, I switch the AC into the transformer.
Cheers,

Tom
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Re: Upgrading 1984 Wells Index 820 with Allin1DC

Post by polaraligned »

Oh, c'mon Tom. The safety guru's are going to get all over you because the motor will spin a second longer while the filter capacitor discharges :roll:

Here is a screenshot from a cabinet on Centroid's site showing a knee mill install. The E-stop contactor (labeled as such) is clearly a Fuji SC-E04. You can see the Fuji logo on the right and make out the model on the left. This is an AC rated contactor and believe it or not, it is only 18 amps. The install is an All-in-one. Maybe they are switching the line side of the power supply? That would generally be a no-go from a liability aspect for Centroid.
Screenshot 2021-07-26 at 17-20-58 Bridgeport_vx2_retrofit_rev5 pdf.png
Anyway, I would go with the DC rated contactor that Marty posted from the applications engineer. I personally have no problem with derating an AC unit for hobby machines as mine has served me well for 10 years, but what I do and what others do are a different story. I can honestly say that I have never had to use the E-stop and my contactor gets more of a workout from turning machine on and off and faults that have arisen. If it fails, chances are that the failure will show during power up. Should it fail, I will replace it with a like unit and move on. In a commercial setting or if I were doing this for a customer would be a different story.
Last edited by polaraligned on Tue Jul 27, 2021 4:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
martyscncgarage
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Re: Upgrading 1984 Wells Index 820 with Allin1DC

Post by martyscncgarage »

Indeed, that's why I'd like to hear Marc's take in the subject. He's been around probably? as long as Centroid. If you look at the PLC he is one of its authors. He's seen a lot over the years.
Marty
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Re: Upgrading 1984 Wells Index 820 with Allin1DC

Post by Chevy427z »

martyscncgarage wrote: Sun Jul 25, 2021 4:05 pm

:oops:
Sorry Mark,
My apologies, you are correct, it is for the snubber only.
Are you using 24VAC for the coil?
Marty
Thanks for the input gents! Yes, Marty, I expect to be using 24VAC. I get the basic understanding of how the contactor works, but still figuring out the exact details. I was hoping that using a Centroid supplied item, it'd be cake to install. Trying hard to not blow anything up.

I've just about got my encoder and motor wiring done, the ALLinOne is mounted and wired, up to the e-stop step.



Mark
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Re: Upgrading 1984 Wells Index 820 with Allin1DC

Post by polaraligned »

OK Mark. A little searching pulls up this thread:

viewtopic.php?f=64&t=4181&p=33925&hilit ... tor#p33925

Marc says in the thread: (hope you don't mind me quoting you here Marc)

"You will be very hard pressed to find a low-cost contactor rated to interrupt 100+ VDC.

We have always quietly ignored that, compensating by using contactors with 40+ Amps AC rating, and (only in recent years) by breaking both sides of the DC load. Even though we are using contactors outside their rating, failures have been rare. I have had to replace half a dozen E-stop contactors due to worn-out contact points (failure to make reliable contact, due to years of erosion). I have not yet heard of a case where a contactor failed closed (welded both pairs of contacts together).

One simple way to avoid this whole issue is to use the Emergency Stop contactor to interrupt the AC supply upstream of the rectifier, instead of interrupting the DC. The only down side to that is that when you press Emergency Stop, the servo drive will still have power for as long as it takes to discharge the capacitor. If you press E-stop in a runaway condition caused by a shorted output FET, the motor might run on for another second or so.

You could set up a test of that easily enough: add a contactor on the AC side that you can control manually (e.g. with a switch or NC button); start a long one-axis Rapid move going; open the AC contactor; and see how far the motor goes before it drains the capacitor and stalls."


He also says:

"If I needed an E-stop contactor with a 24VDC coil, I would use an SC-E1G-24VDC or SC-E2SG-24VDC from Automation Direct."


Based on what Marc said in this previous thread I would use an Automation Direct SC-E2-24VAC or SC-E2S-24VAC as both are similar to what Marc listed but with 24 VAC coils instead of 24 VDC. I have similar Fuji contactor in my machine and it has worked fine for 10 years now.
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Re: Upgrading 1984 Wells Index 820 with Allin1DC

Post by Chevy427z »

Thank you for your time and research polar. The concept is making good sense. I'll look into those numbers that you and Marc provided.

I am still trying to figure out the power I need for my motors. I've asked in here if anyone could help with the minimal info I have on a sticker on them, and I've also written to the company that made them asking the same thing and so far nothing on either front. I have been driving my motors with rectified 24VDC just to move things around and checking my oiling system, and while not blinding speed, seems to be working just fine.

Keep in mind that this machine is in my garage and will never see the kind of production use that would burn out a contactor.

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Re: Upgrading 1984 Wells Index 820 with Allin1DC

Post by polaraligned »

Chevy427z wrote: Tue Jul 27, 2021 7:45 pm
I am still trying to figure out the power I need for my motors. I've asked in here if anyone could help with the minimal info I have on a sticker on them, and I've also written to the company that made them asking the same thing and so far nothing on either front.
Measure the voltage that was being supplied to them. You can measure across the original DC power supply filter capacitor, or measure the AC that the transformer was supplying to the rectifier for them- it is just a simple calculation to get the DC from the AC.

Chances are that they are in the 29 in-lb torque range as that was a very common size DC servo used on this size mill. Based on the voltage, you can get an idea of how much current they will be drawing.

Are you using the original power supply? If so, no real need to worry. I highly doubt that it is a higher voltage than the Centroid can handle.
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Re: Upgrading 1984 Wells Index 820 with Allin1DC

Post by Chevy427z »

polaraligned wrote: Tue Jul 27, 2021 8:37 pm
Measure the voltage that was being supplied to them. You can measure across the original DC power supply filter capacitor, or measure the AC that the transformer was supplying to the rectifier for them- it is just a simple calculation to get the DC from the AC.

Chances are that they are in the 29 in-lb torque range as that was a very common size DC servo used on this size mill. Based on the voltage, you can get an idea of how much current they will be drawing.

Are you using the original power supply? If so, no real need to worry. I highly doubt that it is a higher voltage than the Centroid can handle.
Thank you! That's exactly what I was looking for and very comforting to know. I was getting confused and anxious over that. I do intend to use the original power supply, and it is in fact putting out 24VDC. If memory serves, it was 23 point something, but I see a potentiometer in the circuit. I assume that's for fine tuning the voltage but haven't touched it yet. Thanks again!

While we're talking current, can you explain how to determine what I should set my AllinOne to? I'm reading pages 41 and 42 in the installation manual over and over. Based on your previous information, I'm thinking 12 amps? (for 29in-lb motors)

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Re: Upgrading 1984 Wells Index 820 with Allin1DC

Post by polaraligned »

Chevy427z wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 7:32 am
Thank you! That's exactly what I was looking for and very comforting to know. I was getting confused and anxious over that. I do intend to use the original power supply, and it is in fact putting out 24VDC. If memory serves, it was 23 point something, but I see a potentiometer in the circuit. I assume that's for fine tuning the voltage but haven't touched it yet. Thanks again!

While we're talking current, can you explain how to determine what I should set my AllinOne to? I'm reading pages 41 and 42 in the installation manual over and over. Based on your previous information, I'm thinking 12 amps? (for 29in-lb motors)

Mark
The pot is probably to adjust the 24v output.

If you have a good 24 VDC power supply there that you will be reusing, then just use a contactor that has a 24VDC coil....no need for 24 VAC. Only reason Centroid schematics use the 24 VAC contactor is that they have that voltage available on their transformer which you are not using. I use 24 VDC myself for the Estop contactor. I listed contactors with 24 VAC coils above. Those would not work with your power supply. I can look up new part numbers if you would like.

So you need to measure the higher DC voltage that powers the servos as I described above. It will be somewhere in the 100 to 160 VDC range.

As for the servo current limit settings, 12 amp is safe.
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