conection two MPG wheels with acorn (Resolved)

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martyscncgarage
Posts: 9912
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2017 12:01 pm
Acorn CNC Controller: Yes
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CNC11: Yes
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Location: Mesa, AZ

Re: conection two MPG wheels with acorn (Resolved)

Post by martyscncgarage »

Roman,
No, I cannot, do drawings of operator panels
Here is my suggestion to, you. Start with a basic Acorn system. Use the Centroid provided schematics as a guide to build your control. If you do not have some basic Electrical or electronics knowledge, and/ or you might have trouble following schematics, find someone that can help you.

Have you posted pictures of your lathe?
Start with the basics and learn to use the control and the machine. Then worry about other enhancements later.
Reminder, for support please follow this post: viewtopic.php?f=20&t=383
We can't "SEE" what you see...
Mesa, AZ
romanfox68
Posts: 23
Joined: Wed Apr 28, 2021 8:03 am
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CPU10 or CPU7: No

Re: conection two MPG wheels with acorn (Resolved)

Post by romanfox68 »

martyscncgarage wrote: Sun May 16, 2021 4:52 pm Roman,
No, I cannot, do drawings of operator panels
Here is my suggestion to, you. Start with a basic Acorn system. Use the Centroid provided schematics as a guide to build your control. If you do not have some basic Electrical or electronics knowledge, and/ or you might have trouble following schematics, find someone that can help you.

Have you posted pictures of your lathe?
Start with the basics and learn to use the control and the machine. Then worry about other enhancements later.
Hi Marty probably you are very busy not only with record videos which i very like they are very helpful but you no not answer me how to sot out the problem wen my lathe has gearbox with spindle ,the manual explain this setting very incomprehensibly
I an add some picture of my lathe when it arrive, in this moment is completely dismantle and lot of parts are in manufacturing proces like encoder mount ,new ballsrew fit, turn pulley to fit into ballscrew and motors make bracket and in mean time i can do nothing so i try understand and read the horrible users manual :)) have look on my prewious message where i send you speed and gear ratio of my súindle bearbox
my regards Roman
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martyscncgarage
Posts: 9912
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2017 12:01 pm
Acorn CNC Controller: Yes
Allin1DC CNC Controller: Yes
Oak CNC controller: No
CNC Control System Serial Number: none
DC3IOB: No
CNC12: Yes
CNC11: Yes
CPU10 or CPU7: Yes
Location: Mesa, AZ

Re: conection two MPG wheels with acorn (Resolved)

Post by martyscncgarage »

How many speeds does your gear box have? What horse power is the current motor?
I would probably consider replacing the motor with a larger motor and use a sensorless vector VFD like the GS3 from Automationdirect.com or similar.
CNC12 can accommodate 3 speeds as it is, so you could select three most used speeds and go with that.
You will want an encoder belted at 1:1 directly to the spindle for threading and rigid tapping.

As I said before, get the machine running under CNC12 and Acorn, then worry about the bells and whistles.
You have your work cut out for you replacing the leadscrews with good ballscrews and motor mounts for your axis motors
Reminder, for support please follow this post: viewtopic.php?f=20&t=383
We can't "SEE" what you see...
Mesa, AZ
romanfox68
Posts: 23
Joined: Wed Apr 28, 2021 8:03 am
Acorn CNC Controller: No
Allin1DC CNC Controller: No
Oak CNC controller: No
CNC Control System Serial Number: none
DC3IOB: No
CNC12: Yes
CNC11: No
CPU10 or CPU7: No

Re: conection two MPG wheels with acorn (Resolved)

Post by romanfox68 »

martyscncgarage wrote: Tue May 18, 2021 9:38 am How many speeds does your gear box have? What horse power is the current motor?
I would probably consider replacing the motor with a larger motor and use a sensorless vector VFD like the GS3 from Automationdirect.com or similar.
CNC12 can accommodate 3 speeds as it is, so you could select three most used speeds and go with that.
You will want an encoder belted at 1:1 directly to the spindle for threading and rigid tapping.

As I said before, get the machine running under CNC12 and Acorn, then worry about the bells and whistles.
You have your work cut out for you replacing the leadscrews with good ballscrews and motor mounts for your axis motors
Hi Marty lathe original motor was replacing for 380v 1,5 Kw ( original is run 220v/0,8 Kw or 380v/ 1Kw ) here are speeds relative from motor and spindle : in original motor has two speeds 1400 and 2800 rpm so same gear two different speed depend RPM
1st gear ratio : SPINDLE- 60 RPM = MOTOR - 1400 RPM , SPINDLE -120 RPM = MOTOR- 2800 RPM
2nd gear ratio : SPINDLE- 240 RPM = MOTOR - 1400 RPM , SPINDLE - 480 RPM = MOOTR -2800 RPM
3th gear ratio : SPNDLE - 315 RPM = MOTOR - 1400 RPM , SPINDLE - 630 RPM = MOTOR -2800 RPM
4th gear ratio : SPINDLE -1250 PRM = MOTOR - 1400 RPM , SPINDLE -2500 RPM = MOTOR -2800 RPM
you say acorn handle only 3 gears , relatively i have 8 different speeds so i can regulate manually by dial pot. and because i will have encoder on my spindle -ratio 1:1 omron quadraton 1000ppr so 4000 ppr i hope program should handle it ,and each step motor on axis have also ready build encoder 1000ppr
regards Roman
tblough
Posts: 3071
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7804732B977B-0624192192
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Re: conection two MPG wheels with acorn (Resolved)

Post by tblough »

CNC12 has provisions for 3 speeds. You will need to add switches to the gear selector to notify CNC12 which gear you have selected, or you can use VCP buttons to manually tell CNC12 which gear range you are using. Marty suggests picking three gear ranges to preserve torque, and then using a variable speed motor drive to vary the spindle speed within each of the three gear ranges. You will not be able to use all four gear ranges, only three, and you will not be able to use the dual speed motor which is why most people change to a VFD.

CNC12 uses the spindle encoder only for syncing the spindle and Z axis for threading. It does not use the spindle encoder for speed feedback.
Cheers,

Tom
Confidence is the feeling you have before you fully understand the situation.
I have CDO. It's like OCD, but the letters are where they should be.
martyscncgarage
Posts: 9912
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2017 12:01 pm
Acorn CNC Controller: Yes
Allin1DC CNC Controller: Yes
Oak CNC controller: No
CNC Control System Serial Number: none
DC3IOB: No
CNC12: Yes
CNC11: Yes
CPU10 or CPU7: Yes
Location: Mesa, AZ

Re: conection two MPG wheels with acorn (Resolved)

Post by martyscncgarage »

Tom answered it well.
Concentrate on getting the machine built and converted. Move forward from there.
Reminder, for support please follow this post: viewtopic.php?f=20&t=383
We can't "SEE" what you see...
Mesa, AZ
romanfox68
Posts: 23
Joined: Wed Apr 28, 2021 8:03 am
Acorn CNC Controller: No
Allin1DC CNC Controller: No
Oak CNC controller: No
CNC Control System Serial Number: none
DC3IOB: No
CNC12: Yes
CNC11: No
CPU10 or CPU7: No

Re: conection two MPG wheels with acorn (Resolved)

Post by romanfox68 »

tblough wrote: Tue May 18, 2021 11:44 am CNC12 has provisions for 3 speeds. You will need to add switches to the gear selector to notify CNC12 which gear you have selected, or you can use VCP buttons to manually tell CNC12 which gear range you are using. Marty suggests picking three gear ranges to preserve torque, and then using a variable speed motor drive to vary the spindle speed within each of the three gear ranges. You will not be able to use all four gear ranges, only three, and you will not be able to use the dual speed motor which is why most people change to a VFD.

CNC12 uses the spindle encoder only for syncing the spindle and Z axis for threading.
¨
Hi Tom could you explain me please how this system work with spindle without gearbox ? in my case - original motor was dual speed 1400 rpm and 2800 rpm 1Kw but my new motor has only one speed 2800 rpm and will driving by VFD so in reality i can use only lower speed of each gear and let to run program till max rpm but you say i can add only 3 speeds - OK , but what intrigued me -you say "It does not use the spindle encoder for speed feedback." when program use encoder for synchronisation spindle with Z axis it actually use encoder for speed feet back ?? if i am wrong please correct me this program also use function variable surface speed so if i understand it when you set up 600rpm on 50mm diameter when turn smaller diameter the speed is increasing isn't it? so should also use spindle encoder for speed feet back ? so if spindle has no gearbox and you set up 600 rpm and ratio between motor and spindle will 3:1 ( 3turn of motor 1 turn spindle ) where from program will read spindle speed if it dos not use spindle encoder? from VFD ? thank you for explanation .regards Roman
tblough
Posts: 3071
Joined: Tue Mar 22, 2016 10:03 am
Acorn CNC Controller: Yes
Allin1DC CNC Controller: Yes
Oak CNC controller: Yes
CNC Control System Serial Number: 100505
100327
102696
103432
7804732B977B-0624192192
DC3IOB: No
CNC12: Yes
CNC11: No
CPU10 or CPU7: No
Location: Boston, MA
Contact:

Re: conection two MPG wheels with acorn (Resolved)

Post by tblough »

Many people when converting a gear-head lathe will select a gear range in middle of the settings and leave it there permanently. They then use the Acorn's spindle output connected to a VFD to vary the motor speed and therefore the spindle RPM without having to worry about gear ranges.

If you decide you would rather use the gear box in conjunction with a VFD, then you can choose up to 3 gear ranges. You can choose two (hi -low) or just a single range as above. When using gear ranges, you can either create a custom PLC that figures out from the speed requested, what would be the appropriate gear range and then command a solenoid or some other electromechanical device to do the actual gear shifting automatically.

This is a fairly complicated solution so many choose to do the gear changes manually. In that case, you can use VCP buttons to select gear 1, gear 2, or gear 3 to tell Acorn what gear range you are going to manually shift the headstock into. Acorn would then use the gear ratio you entered when setting up the gear ranges to adjust the VFD speed output to correctly command the motor to run at the right rpm to drive the spindle at the correct rpm given the gear reduction in place.

As far as the spindle encoder goes. Acorn uses the spindle speed derived from the Acorn to adjust the speed of the X or Z axis to maintain the correct feed per rev. If you call out 600rpm and 0.1mm/rev feed rate, the Acorn would normally run the axis at 60mm/min. However if the spindle encoder shows the actual spindle speed as 592rpm, the Acorn will drive the axis at 59.2mm/min. The Acorn WILL NOT adjust the spindle analog output to try and correct the 592rpm to 600rpm.

With a spindle encoder attached, the Acorn will display the ACTUAL rpm derived from the encoder and display that on the screen so you might notice that if you issue a M3 S1000 command, the actual displayed rpm will be 984 rpm. If you don't have a spindle encoder connected to the Acorn, the displayed rpm is equal to the programmed rpm.
Cheers,

Tom
Confidence is the feeling you have before you fully understand the situation.
I have CDO. It's like OCD, but the letters are where they should be.
romanfox68
Posts: 23
Joined: Wed Apr 28, 2021 8:03 am
Acorn CNC Controller: No
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Oak CNC controller: No
CNC Control System Serial Number: none
DC3IOB: No
CNC12: Yes
CNC11: No
CPU10 or CPU7: No

Re: conection two MPG wheels with acorn (Resolved)

Post by romanfox68 »

tblough wrote: Wed May 19, 2021 12:37 pm Many people when converting a gear-head lathe will select a gear range in middle of the settings and leave it there permanently. They then use the Acorn's spindle output connected to a VFD to vary the motor speed and therefore the spindle RPM without having to worry about gear ranges.

If you decide you would rather use the gear box in conjunction with a VFD, then you can choose up to 3 gear ranges. You can choose two (hi -low) or just a single range as above. When using gear ranges, you can either create a custom PLC that figures out from the speed requested, what would be the appropriate gear range and then command a solenoid or some other electromechanical device to do the actual gear shifting automatically.

This is a fairly complicated solution so many choose to do the gear changes manually. In that case, you can use VCP buttons to select gear 1, gear 2, or gear 3 to tell Acorn what gear range you are going to manually shift the headstock into. Acorn would then use the gear ratio you entered when setting up the gear ranges to adjust the VFD speed output to correctly command the motor to run at the right rpm to drive the spindle at the correct rpm given the gear reduction in place.

As far as the spindle encoder goes. Acorn uses the spindle speed derived from the Acorn to adjust the speed of the X or Z axis to maintain the correct feed per rev. If you call out 600rpm and 0.1mm/rev feed rate, the Acorn would normally run the axis at 60mm/min. However if the spindle encoder shows the actual spindle speed as 592rpm, the Acorn will drive the axis at 59.2mm/min. The Acorn WILL NOT adjust the spindle analog output to try and correct the 592rpm to 600rpm.

With a spindle encoder attached, the Acorn will display the ACTUAL rpm derived from the encoder and display that on the screen so you might notice that if you issue a M3 S1000 command, the actual displayed rpm will be 984 rpm. If you don't have a spindle encoder connected to the Acorn, the displayed rpm is equal to the programmed rpm.

Hi Tom Thank you very much for explanation , i hope i understand correctly ,so in any case where is spindle gearbox - each gear ratio has ( with one speed of motor ) has different speed and different torque,probably is no problem with higher speed but with lower which is under each ratio this can create too big force ( i am not sure if i use correct word ) same problem if you try drive in car 20 km /hour with 5 gear - but you said i can use also low and hi range of rpm my gearbox has 8 gear speeds but they are divided into 4 gear groupes each groupe use only two speed 1400 and 2800 rpm
so 4 ( gear groupes ) x 2 ( speeds ) = 8 (gear speeds) , so if i choose set of HI/LOW and speed of each speed ratio i will set as speed for each operation for acorn operation he will operate in range between 1400rpm and 2800 rpm so one set still i will have in back up what you thing about it cen it work it? encoder will show spindle speed so acorn should still know how to manage speed of axis .
my regards Roman
romanfox68
Posts: 23
Joined: Wed Apr 28, 2021 8:03 am
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Re: conection two MPG wheels with acorn (Resolved)

Post by romanfox68 »

Hi Marty and other guys can i ask you ,in one your video , you present some button pendant here is link

catch my ear you said that button pendant can be replace by similar from other companies or seller,
my question is about this new wifi centriod pendant ( i very like it ) not so much 300 usd ,
but i find similar is for mach 3 two or 3 buttons have more but much cheaper ,by your knowledge of this system can be set up to work with centroid ? here is link:
https://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_from ... t&_sacat=0
thank you for your explanation regards Roman
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