Acorn (CNC12 works at bench test) but motors don't move

[alice]

I'm not sure but it looks like I may be locked out of this forum. I replied to another posting this morning but I don't see it. I guess I said the wrong thing. Is that the lesson ?

[Richards]

I doubt that you're locked out of the forum. I've written posts that never appeared for one reason or another. What I normally do is to save my text before submitting it to a simple text file. That way, if something happens, I can copy the text file into a new window and resubmit it.

We need to remember that Centroid only has control over its own products. The Acorn is a superb product. The three that I have work perfectly. They have always worked perfectly. They only trouble I've ever had was my fault when I didn't see a direct short between the Acorn and its metal mounting plate when a wire whisker showed that I need to be more careful.

Centroid sells completely built controllers for those who prefer to just plug and play. For the rest of us, the Acorn is only one small part of the controller. WE have to wear the hat of an electrical engineer. WE have to wear the hat of a mechanical engineer. WE have to wear the hat of a fully qualified troubleshooter when problems arise. That's just part of being a DIYer.

I agree with Keith, Marty and Gary. Test one thing at a time. If one drive, one set of cables and one motor work properly, then substitute other cables, other drives and other motors until each component has been tested. Then, add a second drive with its set of cables and its motor to the mix. After that has been proven on the test bench, then add other drives, other cables and other motors. If everything works on the bench, it MIGHT work in a metal cabinet. Follow the same basic process. Add one component to the enclosure at a time. Test after adding each component. That's the process that everyone I know has had to follow when designing and prototyping process controllers. That is the reason that you can buy an Acorn for $300 or a plug and play controller for $12,000.

When I buy a Leadshine clone for $30, I don't expect that an engineer has fully tested the drive with a motor attached under load. I assume that one assembled board per batch might have been connected to a test bracket and given a very minimal test. The same goes for motors, power supplies and other basic components. In fact, I have a collection of PLCs from AutomationDirect. They all worked right out of the box. They cost 1/20th to 1/10th as much as some GE PLCs that I use when I wear my consultant's hat. I like the AutomationDirect PLCs. They have more functionality. They are more easily programmed. My customers see things differently. Those customers go through a certification process to protect them from regulators who levy huge fines when a process fails. I don't argue with them. They are willing to pay high prices to consultants like me who mostly look over their shoulders to see that they have followed a step-by-step process when they put a new control on-line.

I have nothing but praise for Centroid and those who make it possible for us to follow our dreams whether we only use an Acorn from them or whether we buy a turn-key system.

[martyscncgarage]

I'm not sure but it looks like I may be locked out of this forum. I replied to another posting this morning but I don't see it. I guess I said the wrong thing. Is that the lesson ?

No one is locked out unless you are horribly disrespectful
You probably did what I have done. Forget to his the SUBMIT button when you think you did...still do it after typing out a long message. I like Richards solution...but I'm too lazy..

[cnckeith]

I'm not sure but it looks like I may be locked out of this forum. I replied to another posting this morning but I don't see it. I guess I said the wrong thing. Is that the lesson ?

no one has been blocked or locked. the only accounts that i have deleted have been spammers. everyone here has been respectful so i haven't had to take any admin actions on any users.

[alice]

Thanks for not censoring me.

I'm really not a happy camper at his point in time. I'm not very happy about guessing about so much stuff.

I found not one but two bad cables (out of the six that I had paid for)(from Stepperonline). One motor cable and one encoder cable. This was by swapping lots of cables and doing lots of power cycling of the system for my one working axis(my Z). Turns out that 1 (of 3) motor cable was intermittent; it had a tinned wire (pin #2, green) that was touching the contact inside their GX16-4 connector but it was not soldered. So if the cable laid just right the motor would jump then disconnect (or I could hold the cable just right to make it work; without any mechanical load). The encoder cable was simply wired wrong (wrong colors). As it happened 1 was on my X axis and the other on my Y axis (hence why my Z was the only of 3 working initially). It had nothing to do with the enable lines but I guess I can see where that would be a safe exercise to initially try were everything else okay. Ahh, assumptions (that components work out of the box).

So far no Acorn problem that I have found. As a DIYer I'm still working on it. But with no definitive help from anyone anywhere. I guess as a DIYer I'm on my own. I seem to have exhausted most avenues of potential support; my bad as the younger generations say. What am I to conclude: that people don't know or they just don't want to say ? At least they have nice pat answers. Plausible deniability is a great way to duck... Yeah, yeah I know that "everyones system is different" so I can see how there are so many differences between X,Y,Z mills, there must be as many as there are su... peo... DIYers converting them.

I did read your article on registering for this forum and what to include in all postings. Yeah I did submit a fresh report.zip and a few pictures via a link to a cloud drive. That got me a statement from you that Centroid did not support my version (even though it was new, still in the box, Rev4, unused, it was over a year old, I guess it was my fault that I was in the hospital twice) and that I MUST upgrade to 4.62 (which I did, since my unit was new, never used anyway). That made no difference. At least I could stay on this wonderful forum with all this great and helpful information by all of these experts. So was that a wasted step? For whose benefit? No matter I took the time to upgrade it. Because I'm a DIYer now! (forget that I've built 7 CNC projects before and stopped counting lines of computer code after I wrote a million lines of it and spent 4 decades in engineering (EE) before retiring). I guess none of that counts for anything worthwhile these days.

BTW where is the BBG (BeagleBone Green) made ? Where is Seeed Studio ? Where are Meanwell power supplies made ? Where are those 8-channel relays made ? Did Centroid design and write all the software for the BBG from scratch or was there any porting of prior code involved? Does the BBG still run Linux ? Isn't Windows fun when dealing with WinSocks and network stuff ? Does Centroid use Samba or raw (aka INET) sockets for it's TCP on the Linux side?

After complaining about the necessity of troubleshooting all of these here new parts I was told that Centroid only has a $300 DIY Acorn that has to be put into a system a little piece at a time as a DIY education or that I can buy a $12,000 ready-made controller if I don't want to do the requisite troubleshooting. Too bad. I suspect there would be a lot of interest in something in the middle. I could even have bought a ready-to-run [other] mill for that much. I've got too much $$$ into this stuff here now to change. If I had to do it all over again... But that's just my thinking and I'm just a grumpy, unhappy camper with stuff that doesn't work out of the box. I guess I was expecting better. I guess I was over-expecting something as decent as my hard-earned money. I seem to have to guess a lot these days.

But thanks anyway , I guess it's the thought that counts.

[Black Forest]

Alice you are really out of line. You didn't follow any of the best practice procedures and are blaming everyone for your troubles. If you had followed the best practice procedures you would have located your faulty equipment very fast. Your troubleshooting skills are very limited. You say you are an EE but yet you argue with people on here and criticize Centroid for lack of support but you won't follow very basic procedures that have been offered. Just sayin! Your responses are all, ya ya but types of responses. Really bad form on your part. Just my opinion and not anyone else's on this board.

[Richards]

It's a good thing that the delete key works on my computer. It takes a lot to get my ire up, but right now anyone who calls himself an EE who threw together a prototype system without testing the components and then blaming the forum for letting him down wouldn't want to be around me.

[Black Forest]

It's a good thing that the delete key works on my computer. It takes a lot to get my ire up, but right now anyone who calls himself an EE who threw together a prototype system without testing the components and then blaming the forum for letting him down wouldn't want to be around me.

It is a lot like a woman walking up to a man and kicking him in the balls and then asking if he would like to dance! Keith, Marty and you and others tried to help this person but this person was going to give a ball kicking and no one was going to cheat him/her out of it. Just sayin!

[martyscncgarage]

Thanks for not censoring me.

I'm really not a happy camper at his point in time. I'm not very happy about guessing about so much stuff.
I sense your frustration. I try very hard to help every user when I can or understand the subject. As to most users on the forum. We've already been through it, some of us have setup a number of Acorns. We spend our time trying to help others here on the forum trying to make suggestions. I remember the very first Acorn I got. A buddy who has now passed, and I stared at it and said now what? We took it a little bit at a time and eventually got it going. I truly understand the need for documentation, some of us learn by listening, some of us learn by seeing, some of us learn by reading. We've got the first two down pretty well, but we need a manual, something I started working on for a while now. It will get done.

I found not one but two bad cables (out of the six that I had paid for)(from Stepperonline). One motor cable and one encoder cable. This was by swapping lots of cables and doing lots of power cycling of the system for my one working axis(my Z). Turns out that 1 (of 3) motor cable was intermittent; it had a tinned wire (pin #2, green) that was touching the contact inside their GX16-4 connector but it was not soldered. So if the cable laid just right the motor would jump then disconnect (or I could hold the cable just right to make it work; without any mechanical load). The encoder cable was simply wired wrong (wrong colors). As it happened 1 was on my X axis and the other on my Y axis (hence why my Z was the only of 3 working initially). It had nothing to do with the enable lines but I guess I can see where that would be a safe exercise to initially try were everything else okay. Ahh, assumptions (that components work out of the box). We all know what happens when we ASS_U_ME. in your case it compounded your frustrations. I can see how it might have soured you. We all take a chance when it comes to imported producuts. Some we learn as time goes on, are better than others. I choose not to buy directly out of the US. If I have trouble, I want support or a way to exchange it to get it right. Currently, I'll buy from CNC4PC.COM and Automationtechnologies.com for inexpensive hybrid stepper systems. I have purchased from DMM Technologies for AC Servo systems, and am currently testing Clearpath SDSK and spending the time to do videos on the process, something that takes a couple hours turn into a full day of work, videos, redoing videos and editing. Why do I do it? to *TRY* and help folks like yourself. One of the benefits I get from helping on the forums is reading what people are going through. I try to keep that in the back of my mind when I create the videos. Sometimes I'll make a quickie video to help someone here on the forum to get them through where they are stuck. I think I help one person, but that one quickie video has been viewed over 25k times so it must have helped many others! If one pays attention, there are no "commercials" in my videos. I am not in it for money there isn't any to be made in such a small interest group any way. I am in it to try and help others. The occasional thanks helps heal the bruised on my forehead from when I pound my head against the wall asking myself, why do I keep doing this? I do it to try and help folks like you. These guys here on the forums do it for the same reason, and there are a number of what we consider power users who could be doing something else with their time, but like me, they get something out of trying to give back. I for one am very grateful to all of them. I DO NOT KNOW IT ALL, and I don't respond to messages if I don't but those guys bring something else to the table with their knowledge and share it.

So far no Acorn problem that I have found. As a DIYer I'm still working on it. But with no definitive help from anyone anywhere. I guess as a DIYer I'm on my own. I seem to have exhausted most avenues of potential support; my bad as the younger generations say. What am I to conclude: that people don't know or they just don't want to say ? At least they have nice pat answers. Plausible deniability is a great way to duck... Yeah, yeah I know that "everyones system is different" so I can see how there are so many differences between X,Y,Z mills, there must be as many as there are su... peo... DIYers converting them. Thanks, I'm 57, I have been tinkering with CNC motion controls for 20 years. In fact I watch my 2.5 year old grandson full time every other week and I still find time to try and visit these forums at least once a day. One thing I have *tried* to learn the hardway, is when I am upset, frustrated, pissed off....walk away. Save it for the next day. Try not to vent...won't come out looking good and in the end, I will wear egg on my face. If I screwed up, I screwed up...nothing left to do but learn from it, fix it and move on....

I did read your article on registering for this forum and what to include in all postings. Yeah I did submit a fresh report.zip and a few pictures via a link to a cloud drive. That got me a statement from you that Centroid did not support my version (even though it was new, still in the box, Rev4, unused, it was over a year old, I guess it was my fault that I was in the hospital twice) and that I MUST upgrade to 4.62 (which I did, since my unit was new, never used anyway). That made no difference. At least I could stay on this wonderful forum with all this great and helpful information by all of these experts. So was that a wasted step? For whose benefit? No matter I took the time to upgrade it. Because I'm a DIYer now! (forget that I've built 7 CNC projects before and stopped counting lines of computer code after I wrote a million lines of it and spent 4 decades in engineering (EE) before retiring). I guess none of that counts for anything worthwhile these days. I have had the real pleasure of visiting Centroid and meeting the people. It truly is a small family run business. It is not a Taj Mahal, they are frugal, and they have been through many market cycles. They stay lean to keep the lights on. That said, I can think of no other product like Acorn which will be 5 years old in August that has been through a number of hardware revisions and software revisions all for the better and mostly based on customer feedback. They really care and they really listen. Because they are small, they have to keep moving their resources and priorities. When you bought the Acorn, you were asked to go to the download page and download the latest version of software. That's why there is no CD, USB or software in the box. They want/NEED us to be on the most up to date version so their staff of several programmers can keep up. As you know, software has bug fixes reported by users and feature updates. When we ask for detailed information from the users, its so we can try and give good suggestions. We can't "See" what the user "Sees" As an Engineer, I'm sure you can appreciate, the more information you are given, the easier it is to run through your head the possible scenarios. I think if we could many of us would run out and help each user, but that's not practical, so we have to rely on the information the user provides to us to run the scenario and try and make suggestions. I think sometimes we get hung up one ourselves, how we perceive things should be, and we block out other ideas or suggestions. At the end of the day, we are just offering our thoughts to help users, its up to the user to decide how best to proceed. Please be considerate of us and our time. We are here to try and help and the only thing in it for us really is to help out another user get to the end goal, a functioning Centroid Acorn system. We ARE trying to help you!

BTW where is the BBG (BeagleBone Green) made ? Where is Seeed Studio ? Where are Meanwell power supplies made ? Where are those 8-channel relays made ? Did Centroid design and write all the software for the BBG from scratch or was there any porting of prior code involved? Does the BBG still run Linux ? Isn't Windows fun when dealing with WinSocks and network stuff ? Does Centroid use Samba or raw (aka INET) sockets for it's TCP on the Linux side? What does it matter where anything comes from? Centroid has over 30 years of CNC Machine Motion control experiece. They chose to reinvent their own wheel when they discovered Beagle Bone Green a small board computer, could efficiently run the motion control algorithms. Rather than trying to stay up with the latest processor technologies. Yes, BBG runs a special version of Linux. As users, its just a point of interest...CNC12 is just the Graphical User Interface, BBG and its firmware are running realtime to process motion control. All we really care is that it works!

After complaining about the necessity of troubleshooting all of these here new parts I was told that Centroid only has a $300 DIY Acorn that has to be put into a system a little piece at a time as a DIY education or that I can buy a $12,000 ready-made controller if I don't want to do the requisite troubleshooting. Too bad. I suspect there would be a lot of interest in something in the middle. I could even have bought a ready-to-run [other] mill for that much. I've got too much $$$ into this stuff here now to change. If I had to do it all over again... But that's just my thinking and I'm just a grumpy, unhappy camper with stuff that doesn't work out of the box. I guess I was expecting better. I guess I was over-expecting something as decent as my hard-earned money. I seem to have to guess a lot these days. Users quickly find out that the motion controller and the software seem so inexpensive, until all the other companion components are added in. Right now the system I am doing a video series on, Acorn, 4 axis worth of Teknic Clearpath SDSK servos, power supplies, cables etc. are pushing the electronics part of the build over $3K. Its not cheap, and I had a fully functional Mill, but I took it on to gain some experience with Clearpath SDSK, lots of users are using them. They are made in the USA, and along with the cost comes the support. They will *try* and make suggestions to each and every customer as to what might work on the system GIVEN the accurate information the customer provides to them. Even then, if the motor doesn't perform as expected, within 90 days, they will let the customer exchange them for a different model! So when you initially look at the price of their motors, initially most get sticker shock, then you appreciate it COSTS money to support a product. I think you can appreciate that too. Granted, many of us do NOT have that kind of money to spend, so we take our chance with what will fit in our budget. And we have to understand, you might not get that level of top notch support, given we didn't pay for that.

But thanks anyway , I guess it's the thought that counts.

Alice, I'm still here for you, I think we all are. If you can take a step back, digest it all, then come back to it with fresh eyes and mind, we'll try and help get you through. I know some are posting their frustrations. In response, its because they too are frustrated now. I'm trying to hold hope we can get you there, if you will let us. Hopefully, you won't give up. Centroid Acorn is one of the best motion controllers out there. Its worth the bruises on the forehead...for me anyway.

Let us know if we can help, right now, it appears you need to contact your seller and replace some cables? But you have your CNCPC loaded with 4.62 version of CNC12 and Acorn communicating together. That's a good thing!

Kindest regards,
Marty

[alice]

Marty,

Thanks for your thoughtful reply. I agree with most (but perhaps not all of what you said. I guess some other people who watch this forum interpret what I had written as kicking someone inappropriately. I have never said anything was *wrong* with the Acorn board. In fact my beef has been with this SYSTEM, which happens to be based around an Acorn board. To be clear, someone else who said they made a lot of bucks as a consultant raised the issue of Chinese-made components. My point was that: it is nearly impossible to get away from them (the Chinese-made components). In fact I routinely used the BBG from Seeed in the past (I did some Python programming on it via Putty from a PC). I've had a number of other Chinese-made products. Yes, some are good and some are... not. (I could privately find a better word for them)

My primary beefs with Centroid are 2-fold. 1.) they do offer some "private" support IF a person is willing to pay (IMHO big bucks, beyond my means and that of most hobbyists; I suspect ), but they REQUIRE everyone else to conform to their *free* support. Yes, you and Keith and a couple of others make the lions share of postings. Maybe I'm the odd ball but I have read so many forums, blogs and posts (not just here and not just about CNC) that I tend to reject where there are an easily recognizably disproportionate ratio of posts form "guru's" versus *regular* people. Have you ever thought about the ratio of how many unregistered users are online versus registered users ? I may be interpreting it wrong but IMHO (I just learned those abbreviations ) it looks like there's a lot of undecided interest in the subject of CNC and how to proceed and there really are a lot of choices under $1k for CNC controllers. Also part of #1 is that Centroid (and I do NOT fault them for it, I understand that they want/need to be competitive) does their best to plug their products. That's the way business works these days. But, for $300 people need to understand that *support* is via a PUBLIC forum and as there are almost always gitches in any new SYSTEM (no matter how good the Acorn and associated software are) these people need to understand the PUBLIC nature of Centroid support and that they will most likely (IMHO) be categorized as... newbies (that's as nice as I can put it), and that they are expected to PRE-test every component, never trust the documentation, be themselves (personally) responsible for things that don't go their way. Potential buyers need to see these things for themselves.

These sorts of things were totally alien to my backgrounds in PC's, biomedical and aerospace. In those areas EVERYTHING is documented and absolute! Or at least it used to be that way.

I'm not doubting YOUR motive ! I DO appreciate what your espousing to. And THANKS! for that. I wish more people would do that too. But ask yourself: Why don't they? Really, think about that: Why don't they ??????????? Isn't what YOU are doing the *right thing to do* ? (IMHO the later is *yes*)

And, yes, every SYSTEM is different. Yeah yeah yeah even a system of systems. Been there done that. I spent a lot of time in classroom for Systems Engineering too. But that was a long time ago. I guess that's not relevant nowadays. It's probably even wrong in today's world.

Without forgetting, Centroid; #2.) Is that I, personally, was told by Keith something a long time ago (when I first bought this Acorn). I waited and it never happened. I ALWAYS did and still do keep my word. But I did not feel like (I guess I still have that right) doing something that would benefit them (yes, as well as me too) with no cooperation from Centroid. This issue is private and I won't into any further on this PUBLIC forum.

I'm NN (>>57) years old and I have been in motion control (et.al) for way way more than 20 years. I've had Galil, Delta Tau, my own and other motorized systems before too. But hey, I'm a *newbie* and JUST a DIYer so nothing prior counts. Lets just erase history and move on, right?

I have talked with lots of folks. I was even awarded (by my peers)(thousands of them, amongst 10's of thousands of employees) for being a *nice* and *professional* guy in my industry. But hey, I'm a *newbie* and JUST a DIYer so nothing prior counts. Lets just erase history and move on, right? I talked to the nice folks at DMM (in Canada). And many others. In fact most of my career involved talking to vendors and suppliers. Most of them made a point of doing that. I'm not sure if it was because I was a *soft sell* or I was *nice* to talk to. HHhmmm...? I never kicked anybody who went high OR low. And I don't dance.

My guess is that I make less money than the lowest paid person at Centroid. ("Make" is a misnomer, I only get the money from SS that they took from me years ago the first time I supposedly made it) But, think now, what difference does that make? I don't live in the Taj Mahal either. In fact I had to move intestate last year from Arizona (yeah I was in Mesa many times) due to altitude where we were at and my health. And I try to be frugal too, but isn't that why we buy cheaper stuff from... overseas ? You know, the stuff that doesn't have to be any good ? I guess I'm too stupid for my own circumstances. But thank goodness that's nobody else's fault but my own for trying to do things right for all those years. I'm still learning; learning that only a *sap* (do people still know that word) would try to do *the right thing*. But apparently I have no right to be an unhappy old camper. Not in today's world.

When I bought this Acorn board (on Amazon from seller Centroid) I DID download the latest software. It was version 4.18. THAT was their latest version. Did I do wrong ? It seems now that way. Sorry but I was trying to do it *the right way*. Yeah I know about software and bug fixes. But on a PUBLIC forum to say its not supported because of something I did wrong after I tried to *do it the right way*. Perhaps an open minded person could somehow squint their eyes/mind just a tad and see the optics of that. It doesn't seem IMHO to be a good way to start off a *help* process.

I watched many videos, (many were yours, some irrelevant, but still interesting, thanks for that/those). I can now understand that lots of people *brick* their BBG/Acorn and need to *resurrect* them. That was a good video. Thanks. But why did so may newbie DIYers brick their BBGs ? Weren't THEY doing everything step by step ? Perhaps they expected parts to just work. Hmmpph! Naive, right! Ha. Lets laugh and denigrate them if they don't conform and worship the right gurus. They must have trusted some documentation. So, the lesson is: don't trust people or documentation. Or is there some way to have it BOTH ways at the same time. That'd be a good trick but I'm too stupid to figure out how. So: I shouldn't even bother to talk to anyone or ask any questions or believe their documentation (except for Centroid's or some American companies of course)(isn't there a name for that?). I guess this is the new world we live in.

Thanks for your help, or at least earnestly trying to help. Constructively that is. It did not help, but IMHO I honor you for trying.

You know what free advise is worth. So here is some: Aim above the head not the heart. A little higher please. Where was William Tell aiming, really? Who knows. Talking down to people is the best way to alienate them. Let THEM say 'slow down' and THEN slow down. Otherwise they are insulted and will never listen earnestly to you. And not 100% of people should be in the *newbie* or *DIY* categories. (maybe 99% ) I was a sucess in my career IMHO because I always tried to see things from someone else point of view. In the case of you videos (again IMHO) don't have a Syil or Emco or a bunch of other *expensive* (to those of us DIYers) in thee background. It make it hard to relate. That's one of the reasons I've stopped watching video from certain people on YouTube. But maybe I'm the odd-ball. I'm just saying...

Now I have to go back, way back, and be a DIYer and act like a newbie and troubleshoot this cheap stuff that I bought. I cannot afford to go out and get Clearpath SDSK's or DMM (or Estun's) to play with or other parts to swap in or out of this system. I do have a DMM does that count?

BTW: there seems to be some sort of time-out on this forum where possibly after a period of lacking interactions of some type a person is logged off (by some probably automated process such that replys are lost and the user is redirected to a new login whereby, in that process, all of their typing is/was lost. That gives the *appearance* of being censored; which IMHO gives a bad impression. So I did a <CTRL>A & a <CTRL>C before leaving here and then had to log back in so this is the 2nd time for posting this exact reply. I'll look to see if it is duplicated or not. (this is similar to saving the text prior to submit; which I DID click on a prior post).