Acorn (CNC12 works at bench test) but motors don't move

[martyscncgarage]

When you installed 4.62, did you use Windows control panel to UNINSTALL 4.18 first or did you install 4.62 over the top of 4.18? (That's a no-no)
If you did uninstall with Windows Control Panel, delete the CNCM director and do a FRESH install of 4.62
Since the Network address to your ethernet card is already set, you should not get the window to SET the address.

I think you made things tough on yourself by assembling and wiring everything rather than taking it ONE step at a time on a bench test.

Also, look at your drives to see if they are faulting (LED Blink Codes?)
Either invert the Enable in the Advanced tab of the wizard (or disconnect MF from the Enable on Acorn) to see if you have motor movement.

Marty

[alice]

I do not have internet access from the CNC PC, I will never put anything online like that with no antivirus, firewall or other such protections. I did watch the video about updating software. The problem with so many videos is that they only show a "nominal" case. That is, only what it SHOULD look like in MOST cases. They don't get into 'corner cases'. I first renamed the old cncm directory to cncm.old (and copied that also to a thumb drive). I removed the shortcuts from the desktop (for CNC12 and that Wizard). I downloaded the 4.62 on a different PC to a thumb drive and 'walk_netted' that to my CNC PC. Then I simply ran that setup.

I HAD already been thru the 'bench test' sitting on the table in my house. Before (with the older CNC12, which, at that time, was the ONLY version there was). Everything worked okay albeit only to establish that the CNC PC could communicate via ethernet to the Acorn/BBG. I did not have any Onlinestepper CL86Y drives or CL motors at that time for any further testing.

I DID get the message windows about the network adapter (which said "None" and none found, when I do have one available in the CNC PC; a standard Realtek motherboard one, with the appropriate drivers). That's why I included pics of those dialog boxes, the setup program did not seem to be finding what was already there; for whatever reason. But that was and is beside the point, because both then (when I first bought the Acorn)(with an older version) and now with 4.62 (despite me ignoring the message windows) the CNC12 software and the Wizard communicate with the Acorn/BBG. I just tried it again a few minutes ago. It does communicate. The Wizard and CNC12 do run. But how could I have attached (as requested) a fresh report.zip file and pics otherwise? Those Centroid programs ONLY run AFTER Acorn/BBG are talking via ethernet.

So, without the old .exe file (I renamed the folder) and with no other changes to the PC, I just now used the Windows-10 uninstaller to remove 4.64. There were still files remaining (in the renamed cncm folder which Windows seems to have followed, fooey on MS) so I renamed it to 4.62.old. I reinstalled 4.62 for the 2nd time. It still popped up the message windows about "None" and the IP address and again I ignored those and after a myriad of files were extracted and moved (the green progress bar went fully across) the desktop shortcut for CNC12 was there. As before, after starting the Acorn board, I ran CNC12 in order to get to the 4.62 Wizard (which now has Stepperonline drives shown, unlike prior), I selected those drives/motors. I did a save, then cycled power, waited for the rapid blue LEDs and then the 1pps 'heartbeat', then powered up the CNC PC and ran CNC12. EVERYTHING was exactly the same as before. The X and Y motors went Bbrrpt (about 1 rev in a fraction of 1 second) and then nothing more (no matter what was done with the jog buttons). The Z axis appeared to work okay. It always has. Under no circumstances has the red LED (fault) turned on on the Stepperonline CL86Y drives, it is always the other (green) LED that's on on all 3 axes.

As per CNCKeith's instructions I had removed the enable wires (as they still are disconnected) so I have not tried changing anything in the wizard (i.e. check boxes, although I saw them) except to choose the Stepperonline drivers/motors.

I have never seen a schematic for wiring 3 axes of Stepperonline Drivers and associated CL motors, only a single axis. After all of the troubles that I see people having with EMI/RFI and shielding I was concerned that setting up a single axis on the bench with 'bench' wiring would not represent faithfully the electrical environment in an enclosure. My enclosure is wood with .050" thick aluminum sheet back-plate and bottom (sides and top are wood (and door)). I drew my own schematic for the 3 (or 4) axis setup. And if I had arbitrarily chosen what is now my 'Z' axis components I could end up where I'm at right now. The system only seem to work for 'Z' and not for X or Y (motors & drivers).

As soon as I power on the Acorn all 3 of these CL86Y drivers display a green LED and all 3 axes' motor shafts are firm (not free to rotate by hand). This behavior has never changed. When Acorn is not powered up those same shafts do rotate by hand.

All 3 motors are NOT installed on the mill. There are just sitting out with only the Stepperonline_supplied cables connected. Should the motor cases be grounded ? Should I beep out the Stepperonline factory-supplied cables (at this point) ? I did beep out ALL of my wiring, including the motor connectors and DB9 connectors. It should not have been required for me to beep out their stuff. Or am I overestimating their QC standards.

If there is in fact a problem with Acorn, then doing a 1-axis test might not have shown up a problem on a port not under test. What's the purpose of a bench test and then a single axis motor test (I watched your G540 test several times even though I don't touch the DB25 connector). Shouldn't a THOROUGH 'bench test' test ALL of the features of the Acorn board AND all of the other component of the SYSTEM ? I never found any document or video about doing that. Is there anything like that somewhere ? You know, a "full" X-Y-Z-A 'bench test' with screw terminal step and direction outputs ?

And if it were FAITHFUL (to an all-up system) would that sort of 'spread out on a bench' testing obviate EMI/RFI problems. And if there were EMI, RFI, cross-talk and|or compatibility problems wouldn't it be nice to find them as early as possible ? Or (rhetorically) would that only be possible with everything installed in an enclosure, including any problems that doing so could introduce ?

Now I am faced with some sort of unknown problems that are making my life like hell. I'm becoming a laughing stock because if this, gee isn't CNC fun. I have many thou$sands invested in this stuff (not to mention time) and NOW I find it doesn't work as indicated in my case. I have read every document or schematic and watch every video that I could find, a number of them, including yours, many times. They do not address or answer my questions or problems or issues. So what do I do now ? I'll give this a few more days (until after the CHINESE New Year is over since Stepperonline may be waiting until then to reply). This looks a lot like dodging responsibility to me, which I was never allowed to do in my many years of career. I don't have too many years left and I just thought, perhaps mistakenly, that doing a little CNC in my retirement years would be fun.

I don't have unlimited time for all of this nonsense. Just what should I do? Please ! Step by step. I will follow, but I don't have forever to have a little bit of fun.

[alice]

BTW: typo 4.64 should be 4.62

[alice]

I have just disconnected my X motor cable (the 4pin GX16-4 ones) and the same for my 'Y' axis. I Also disconnected their associated encoder cables (for the X and Y motors). I then moved both the motor (4 pin, GX16-4) cable and the associated encoder cables from my 'Z' connectors to my 'X' axis connectors (with Acorn powered off of course). I then powered up everything, connected, ran CNC12 and set Home, got the zeros in the onscreen DRO displays. Then I clicked the +X jog button. It worked, i.e. the motor turned as it also did for -X.

Next I will investigate ALL of the Stepperonline cables. I cannot (without warranty issues) open the motors but I can beep the cables and measure winding resistance with a DMM.

I will also try the Y axis.

Its a shame that it has to come to this ! Troubleshooting components that are supposed to be of higher quality (whatever that means these days; I know what is USED to mean).

I notice that I now get a blinking red LED on the CL86Y drives indicating a 'following position error' (a type of fault) for Y and Z (which are now without cables and motors). This seems okay to me at this point in time.

I Next I will test the working motor & cables on the 'Y' axis. If that works then it would suggest that the drivers are okay. and the problem may lie in the Stepperonline cables.

Supposing that is indeed the problem, then should I reconnect the enables (EN- on the H2/H3 screw terminal and MF- on the CL86Y drives). I find it interesting that the drives can be enabled or disabled without the MF wires connected. That suggests that there is something in the CL86Y drives other than the simplistic diagram in their manual. HHhhmmmm....? That is also in light of their spec of a logic 0 = 0 to 0.5V and a logic 1 = 5v to 24v.
Also HHhhmmmm....?

And a Tormach has about doubled in price in the last couple of years as many other 'hobby-class' CNC's have all but disappeared.
A 3rd HHhhmmmm....?

[ShawnM]

All the Leadshine clones I've worked with have never needed the enable circuit wired as they are enabled by default. This is why many on the forum ask that new users just wired up the step and direction first and try to get the motors moving.

I have found that some of the diagrams for the various encoder cables on the Chinese closed loop knockoffs are not correct. You can get no movement or a drive fault because of the encoder cable and wiring it incorrectly even though you followed the diagram.

When you get a single axis working try swapping just the motors and see if all three (or 4) motors work. Then swap drives only to see if each of those work. Use a known good set of cables and then test other cables and tone them out if needed. Then try a known good setup on each of the 4 axis and see if each one works. If you find an issue check the wizard settings. Step by step you'll get there.

Again, do one axis at a time so you can see where the issue is. If you wire everything up at once it's hard to see where it went wrong or what isn't working.

Report back what you find.

[martyscncgarage]

The point of doing one thing at a time on the bench is to prove out each subsystem before going to the next.
CNCPC-->Acorn Communication
Test the Analog Spindle Output
Then
Connect one Drive and one motor get it turning properly
Connect the second Drive and get it turning
Connect the third Drive and get it turning
Connect the fourth and get it turning.

You would have run into the problem you are having during connecting the motors and drives.

I got closed loop drives and motors with an extension cable. Cable had DB15 connectors on each end. I thought I don't need those cables yet so I will just plug the motor pigtail into the drive. Guess what, no motor movement. I put the extension cable on, motor started turning. I inquired. Yep, that extension cable was wired differently than the same connector on the motor end. Wired them all with the extension cable and everything worked.

Once I have motors turning, then I am pretty confident about the rest, Home switches and relay outputs and I will then mount everything to a back panel and start wiring the back panel. Once the back panel is complete, I will fire it up on the bench and test motors/VFD/Spindle, check for any PC/MPU request to sends (F7 Utility, F9 Logs, F1 Errors) and monitor that. I will run a G code program several times to test motors and CNC12. Then I check logs. If all good, THEN I will mount the back panel into the cabinet and complete the wiring.

At that point I will also mount up the motors, wire the spindle motor.
Then start CNC12...test Axis motor movement to make sure the Axis are moving in the correct direction, correct if necessary
I will "Fine Tune" or Calibrate the axis.
I will test the home switches and program their input
I will then have CNC12 home the machine BUT I will manually trip the home switches. Once I am satisfied the machine will home correctly, I will let CNC12 Home the machine
Then, I will calibrate and set the soft limits.
I will manually jog the machine away from home and toward the other ends of the axis and make sure CNC12 will stop at the soft limits.
At that point, all that is left is to wire the outputs for VFD control, program the VFD, Test VFD operation, Calibrate the VFD
Tie up any loose ends and run some programs and do some test cuts.

Taking things one step at a time, proving EACH system as you go IS the way to go. You wire it all up and stuff it in a cabinet then test, you end up picking the system apart within the cabinet, which is harder to do than on the bench.

Sounds like you are using good trouble shooting skills to find out where the problem is. As Shawn suggests. You now have one good motor/drive cable set on a working axis output on Acorn. Leave everything on that working axis on Acorn and start substituting in the other components, making sure they are all setup (dipswitches) and wired like the first functional setup and test.

Good luck. Looking forward to hearing you are making more progress.

Marty

[alice]

Thanks ShawnM. Your info is what I'm coming to find out is what is true.

...[deleted]... this is my 7th CNC project

...[deleted]... I am a retired electrical engineer... ...I have been in charge of a number of product development and through all sorts of certifications such as UL/ETL, CSA, TUV, MIL, FDA 510K, etc. I hold 4 patents, including for high-end electronics...

...[deleted]... ...it is a shame that documentation, e.g. the Stepperonline manual enclosed with the drives that I bought from them, leaves out details and/or that their products are in error... ... now I have to swap things around trying to troubleshoot things until they "seem" to work okay. IMHO that's not a good way to do business. Get the customers money and... ... ... For example look anywhere in the Stepperonline manual but specifically under section 3.2 and tell me where it says what the "AC" terminals on the CL86Y are at and how to connect to them. And, not until AFTER I buy hem and get manual I see their "4 Wiring" diagram with a note that says "24 to 48VDC recommended..." when printed in their specs (their page 2, silk screened right on the driver housings and in their ads) it says 30 to 110VDC. Fortunately I went with a 77VDC power supply leaving me 30% 'headroom'. Is that enough ? At this point it "seems" like that "should" be okay.

As I said before I will beep out the Stepperonline factory-made cables. I will swap drives and motors around to see if they all work or if and where there are problems. I'll un-solder and re-solder cables and connectors as required. That was not shown in ANY of the documents or videos that I found and read or watched.

...[deleted]... Anyway, I'm rambling. I'm guessing (isn't that a shame too) I'll get this stuff to "seem" to work okay. Or not. I have limited time to mess with it. It's a matter of priorities and time management.

Thanks (I think) to you too Marty. You should make a new video showing the entire procedure (like in your reply hereto)(unless there is already one. Is there ? I don't have a Syil or a Bridgeport or an Emco or such, nor do I have any spare parts to swap in or out; I live of of my SS monthly only) showing the ENTIRE process and what to do if things go various 'unexpected' ways. I'm sure I'd watch it. I'd guess a lot of people would. I mean this constructively: I've been around the block a few times and I see WAY WAY WAY too many cases of documentation (that includes videos) that focus on the 'middle ground' (which, granted, is the most common case, thus still warranted) but I find very little about 'corner cases' such as a 'factory-made' cable with wires crossed and what are those symptoms and fixes and what damage may have happened, and when to replace some parts, or what happens after the 90th percentile. Think of a square with a maximally inscribed circle in it. What do those of us in the square but outside the middle circle do? THAT would be a wonderful video.

And, hey CNCKeith, WHY did you suggest to remove the enable (MF) wires ? What if I want to move an axis without turning off the Acorn. How do I, eventually, get the driver enables to work? A lot of universities these days teach what and not why. And this is supposed to be an "educational" product ? (is that an oxymoron?)

[martyscncgarage]

"And, hey CNCKeith, WHY did you suggest to remove the enable (MF) wires ? What if I want to move an axis without turning off the Acorn. How do I, eventually, get the driver enables to work? A lot of universities these days teach what and not why. And this is supposed to be an "educational" product ? (is that an oxymoron?)"

Because most drives come from the factory ENABLED.
If the drive is Enabled by default, you wire the MF or EN terminal, when you power up the drive before commanding any move with Acorn, and the motor rotor is locked, the drive IS enabled, but when you command a move with Acorn, Jog the axis, Home the Axis or go to MDI, the Enable signal will come on and actually DISABLE IT.

There is no way we can cover every drive manufacturer in a video.
It stands to reason if you get one drive and one motor going, the the 2nd, 3rd and 4th should be configured and wired the same way to Acorn. You should have success....unless there is a manufacturing problem with the drive/motor as it seems to be the case with your setup.

Looking forward to learning what the outcome is of your setup. When you resolve it, all these posts will remain on the forum and be searchable for the next user.

Marty

[ShawnM]

Alice, you also have to know that nearly everything bought from a China supplier will not come with any documentation. Count yourself lucky you received it. Also know there are clones of clones coming out of China and once they have your money you are on your own. Stepper Online has been a reputable supplier in the past but who knows these days. Unless you buy authentic drives from a US supplier you will get no help from overseas. Some have and it's rare. We all buy from China because it's far less expensive but that comes with a tradeoff.

As Marty stated and outlined, do one axis at a time in the order he laid out. If you do it this way you will find your problems and get everything working. I suggested once you get one axis working swap out motors and drives on that same axis to make sure all drives and motors work properly. Then you can wire the next drive to the next axis. Make triple sure once you have a drive's DIP switches set properly you make sure all drives have their DIP switches exactly the same. Then check each cable. It's possible they are not soldered the same.

Also, you need to make sure your wizard settings are correct, double and triple check these also, one axis at a time.

I've heard Centroid is working on newer documentation and videos for the latest version. There's a lot on the forum already and their website. Sometimes they update software so quickly today's video is outdated tomorrow. To date I don't know of a video for 4.6x software but the install is basically the same for the last few versions.

I'm fairly new to Centroid myself and a common theme I keep seeing with all newbies is they hook up everything all at once and sometimes even mount the motors on the machine for the first startup. This is nuts in my opinion and it makes trouble shooting a nightmare for the builder and those trying to help. We all have to crawl before we can walk so we need to take baby steps when we are doing something new. I'm a pilot and aircraft owner and my first flying lesson was just handling the yoke to get a feel for how a plane flies. I didn't get to take off, buzz the tower and land the plane on my first lesson, we took it one step at a time.

This forum will help you get this sorted out and you'll be excited when it all comes together. You have the background and skillset to make this work but you have to be patient and work with those trying to help you. They've all been there and done that.

[Gary Campbell]

Old adage..... "If you cant get one motor to work right on the bench, you will never get them all to run on the machine"

It is much easier to troubleshoot using a half dozen wires than 20 or 30+.