ProbeApp Official Release: Public Trial ***EXPIRED***

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Muzzer
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Re: ProbeApp Official Release: Public Trial

Post by Muzzer »

Hi Swissi

I've done EXACTLY as you spelled out - several times. And yes, I can confirm that using the "native CNC 12" method, it doesn't matter in the slightest what value I enter in the offset for T10. G49 doesn't change the displayed Z coordinate in G54.

If I use the ProbeApp to determine Z0, I get a different result. When I run G49 afterwards, the Z coordinate changes by the value of the length offset of T10.

Clearly the 2 methods are doing something different under the hood.

Perhaps the big giveaway is that as soon as you start to run the Probe App, the first thing that happens is that the Z coordinate changes by any change in T10 offset value.

You will deduce that ensuring reference tool offset (T10 in my case) is always set to zero avoids the problem if you switch between the 2 systems (CNC12 and ProbeApp). If you don't see any issue in having this bear trap for people who switch between the systems without being made aware of the dangers, fair enough. But looking back up the thread, you will see other users (slodat and cncsw) in addition to myself who don't (didn't) believe the offset must be zero. If that advice needs to be changed, then perhaps this thread will add some value / avoid some loss.

Seems to me we still have some work to do here before we bottom this out:
The bottom line is that if I run the CNC12 WCS probe to set Z0 and then load a tool (G43H1 etc for tool 1), I always get the correct offset, regardless of the ref tool offset in the tool offset table. If I run the ProbeApp with any sort of non-zero offset for the ref tool, I get a different result and a tool crash becomes very likely. Are you happy with that?

I've now spent several hours on my machine over the last few days doing nothing but testing this out, yet I have a life to live and work to do on the house this weekend.
martyscncgarage
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Re: ProbeApp Official Release: Public Trial

Post by martyscncgarage »

Muzzer wrote: Sat Aug 08, 2020 7:14 am Hi Swissi

I've done EXACTLY as you spelled out - several times. And yes, I can confirm that using the "native CNC 12" method, it doesn't matter in the slightest what value I enter in the offset for T10. G49 doesn't change the displayed Z coordinate in G54.

If I use the ProbeApp to determine Z0, I get a different result. When I run G49 afterwards, the Z coordinate changes by the value of the length offset of T10.

Clearly the 2 methods are doing something different under the hood.

Perhaps the big giveaway is that as soon as you start to run the Probe App, the first thing that happens is that the Z coordinate changes by any change in T10 offset value.

You will deduce that ensuring reference tool offset (T10 in my case) is always set to zero avoids the problem if you switch between the 2 systems (CNC12 and ProbeApp). If you don't see any issue in having this bear trap for people who switch between the systems without being made aware of the dangers, fair enough. But looking back up the thread, you will see other users (slodat and cncsw) in addition to myself who don't (didn't) believe the offset must be zero. If that advice needs to be changed, then perhaps this thread will add some value / avoid some loss.

Seems to me we still have some work to do here before we bottom this out:
The bottom line is that if I run the CNC12 WCS probe to set Z0 and then load a tool (G43H1 etc for tool 1), I always get the correct offset, regardless of the ref tool offset in the tool offset table. If I run the ProbeApp with any sort of non-zero offset for the ref tool, I get a different result and a tool crash becomes very likely. Are you happy with that?

I've now spent several hours on my machine over the last few days doing nothing but testing this out, yet I have a life to live and work to do on the house this weekend.
Muzzer, can you do a video and demonstrate what you are doing/seeing?
Just a suggestion.
Reminder, for support please follow this post: viewtopic.php?f=20&t=383
We can't "SEE" what you see...
Mesa, AZ
swissi
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Re: ProbeApp Official Release: Public Trial

Post by swissi »

Just to be frank, I’m not claiming that there are no bugs in the ProbeApp and as my beta testers can confirm, when an issue was discovered, it was fixed within 24 hours.

If I could see a problem here with the ProbeApp, I would fix it in a heartbeat but I can just not reproduce the problems you claim are happening. Believe me I would rather fix the problem than writing these endless responses. What I can see is that the problems are caused by the way you incorrectly setup the tool offset library. If your reference tool is part of your tool offset library, the height offset value of that tool MUST be 0 just by definition. This is a given fact that is not up for debate. You keep bringing up that you get different results when the H value of your reference tool is not 0. This is like claiming that your truck does run on Diesel but your Ferrari has a problem with it.

Muzzer wrote: Sat Aug 08, 2020 7:14 am I've done EXACTLY as you spelled out - several times. And yes, I can confirm that using the "native CNC 12" method, it doesn't matter in the slightest what value I enter in the offset for T10. G49 doesn't change the displayed Z coordinate in G54.
Just to be absolutely sure that nothing else on your machine configuration could play an unexpected role here, I loaded your Report file on my test machine and ran the tests as I described them. If you have a H10 value other than 0 in your offset library and the Z coordinate on the DRO does not change when you enable and disable the H10 height offset, then you are doing something fundamentally wrong.
Muzzer wrote: Sat Aug 08, 2020 7:14 am If I use the ProbeApp to determine Z0, I get a different result. When I run G49 afterwards, the Z coordinate changes by the value of the length offset of T10. Clearly the 2 methods are doing something different under the hood.
I’m just not able to reproduce what you are claiming not even with your exact configuration. I just have to assume you are doing something fundamentally wrong and the only way to get to the bottom of this is if you can shoot a video that shows the exact steps you are taking to proof your claim as Marty suggested.

Muzzer wrote: Sat Aug 08, 2020 7:14 am You will deduce that ensuring reference tool offset (T10 in my case) is always set to zero avoids the problem if you switch between the 2 systems (CNC12 and ProbeApp). If you don't see any issue in having this bear trap for people who switch between the systems without being made aware of the dangers, fair enough.
What bear trap? There are no two systems. If your Reference Tool Height Offset value is not 0 then you have setup your tool offset library incorrectly as I’m tirelessly trying to explain. This is a general CNC12 setup issue and has nothing to do with the ProbeApp. If you don’t want to acknowledge that putting Diesel in a Ferrari is the problem, I'm really at a loss here.
Muzzer wrote: Sat Aug 08, 2020 7:14 am But looking back up the thread, you will see other users (slodat and cncsw) in addition to myself who don't (didn't) believe the offset must be zero. If that advice needs to be changed, then perhaps this thread will add some value / avoid some loss.
You are taking things out of context. This is what really has been said:
slodat wrote: Wed Aug 05, 2020 8:28 pm I have a mill and a router. I was referring to how I am measuring tools and setting part zero on my knee mill.

I used this http://www.cncsnw.com/ToolHeightKneeMill.PDF and http://www.cncsnw.com/OLMProc1a.htm as a guide to setup my mill. This was the best explanation I found.
cncsnw wrote: Wed Aug 05, 2020 9:00 pm Slodat,

If you are following the procedure at http://www.cncsnw.com/OLMProc1a.htm, then the height offset value for your probe (e.g. H99) will be zero...
I asked several times for others to chime in here if they have any issues with Tool Height Offsets or if they think what I’m saying is wrong. Please bring your feedback and don’t hold back. If there is an issue with the ProbeApp I’m happy to fix it but I just can’t fix anything I can’t see.

Muzzer wrote: Sat Aug 08, 2020 7:14 am Seems to me we still have some work to do here before we bottom this out:
The bottom line is that if I run the CNC12 WCS probe to set Z0 and then load a tool (G43H1 etc for tool 1), I always get the correct offset, regardless of the ref tool offset in the tool offset table. If I run the ProbeApp with any sort of non-zero offset for the ref tool, I get a different result and a tool crash becomes very likely. Are you happy with that?
This is just not possible. If your Tool Offset library is setup wrong, there's just no way CNC12 can calculate the correct Tool Height Offsets. As said above, please shoot a video that confirms your claims so I can reproduce the issues.
Muzzer wrote: Sat Aug 08, 2020 7:14 am I've now spent several hours on my machine over the last few days doing nothing but testing this out, yet I have a life to live and work to do on the house this weekend.
Believe me I wish I could have done other stuff than typing responses that seem to go nowhere.

-swissi
If you are using Fusion 360, check out my CNC12 specific Post Processor
If you are using a Touch Probe, Tool Touch Off Device or a Triple Corner Finder Plate, check out my ProbeApp

Contact me at swissi2000@gmail.com
martyscncgarage
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Re: ProbeApp Official Release: Public Trial

Post by martyscncgarage »

Be nice if either of you would take the time to video exactly what you are doing and what the perceived issue might be and posted unlisted on YouTube.

Good learning experience for all of us.
WORKING together, understanding what's going on, will help flesh things out and make things better.

Yes, it takes time...but when I've done impromptu videos, it has not only helped the individual, it's helped others understand and learn.

Leave the egos out, help each other to try and understand what's going on. Swissi, your macros may not have a problem, but clearly understanding what Muzzer is seeing, may help you make them better with a clarification note.

Just suggestions and observations....
Have a good weekend.
Marty
Marty
Reminder, for support please follow this post: viewtopic.php?f=20&t=383
We can't "SEE" what you see...
Mesa, AZ
swissi
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Re: ProbeApp Official Release: Public Trial

Post by swissi »

Well let's tackle this from another angle.

Marc (cncsnw) is a very well respected member on this forum and is probably one of the most experienced Centroid Control users. Marc has an excellent website with a wealth of information regarding everything Centroid related.

Marc has a very detailed Guide about Tool Height Compensation that has been mentioned before on this thread.The guide covers all the different methods and best practices how to measure tool offsets.

This here is a direct link to the chapter that describes exactly Muzzer's configuration with a Touch Probe as Reference Tool and an Electronic Tool Setter on a knee mill: http://www.cncsnw.com/OLMProc1a.htm

Muzzer here's my proposal:
  • Follow exactly the steps that Marc describes in this Guide to setup your Tool Offset Library. Focus specifically on Step 2.
  • If you are still experiencing any issues regarding Height Offsets after this setup, please document your steps and results in a video and I'll be happy to track down the issues if there are any left
-swissi
If you are using Fusion 360, check out my CNC12 specific Post Processor
If you are using a Touch Probe, Tool Touch Off Device or a Triple Corner Finder Plate, check out my ProbeApp

Contact me at swissi2000@gmail.com
Muzzer
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Re: ProbeApp Official Release: Public Trial

Post by Muzzer »

Sorry, I had stuff to do yesterday beyond the workshop. Luckily, The Domestic Manager has some "work" work to, so I seem to have been gifted half an hour or so in the workshop.

I used Autodesk Screencast to capture my actions this morning - couldn't think of anything simpler. You may need an Autodesk account to view the content but if you have Fusion, that's probably not an issue.

Here's me probing the workpiece using my Renishaw probe T10, with zero offset, then with 20mm offset. As you can see, CNC12 copes fine. This reflects what I (and cncsw, slodat etc) found / knew, ie that the offset of the ref tool doesn't matter in CNC12.
https://autode.sk/3gIA0Fo

Repeating the exact same procedure with the ProbeApp results in that same 20mm offset screwing up the Z coordinate. If I used the ProbeApp with the 20mm offset, I'd have a 20mm problem that the tool and the workpiece would have to resolve at my expense.
https://autode.sk/33IrQJt

Perhaps it's simple enough to resolve if you mandate that Probeapp MUST have a zero offset for the ref tool but as I said, that's a trap waiting for the unwary.

Although there's clearly a human dimension to both identifying the root cause of the problem and its resolution, I can't help feeling the underlying issue may be something like a parameter or a variable that is hidden away somewhere. We can't all be wrong, yet as things stand, mixing the ProbeApp and the "native" CNC12 probing functions could be expensive. My report was posted earlier in the thread. Nothing significant has changed in the meantime.

Sorry that there seems to be a degree of friction here around the room but I guess that's due to the frustration arising from the difficulty in getting to the bottom of the issue. None of us like to be told we are at fault in some way. However, together we can fix most things.
swissi
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Re: ProbeApp Official Release: Public Trial

Post by swissi »

Thanks Muzzer for the Video. This explained a lot and now we are getting somewhere.

Look at the screen shot from your video:
S13.PNG
Your Touch Probe is Tool T10 but you are setting the WCS Z0 point with T0 H0. H0 is a special Height Offset value that has 0 Offset. So doing an H0 is basically the same a doing a G49. You are setting the Z0 point in CNC12 with T0H0 while the ProbeApp uses the Touch Probe T10H10. Of course you will get different results if you compare different things.

One mystery remains:

On my system the "Auto[F4]" function to set WCS Z0 does automatically insert the tool number of the probe that's being configured in Parameter 12 when I leave it at 0 but it looks like it's not doing that on Muzzer's system. Does anybody know why?


-swissi
If you are using Fusion 360, check out my CNC12 specific Post Processor
If you are using a Touch Probe, Tool Touch Off Device or a Triple Corner Finder Plate, check out my ProbeApp

Contact me at swissi2000@gmail.com
Muzzer
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Re: ProbeApp Official Release: Public Trial

Post by Muzzer »

Yes, when you choose "auto", clearly the probe is being used, so that display is a bit misleading / unhelpful. I wonder if this is the root of the problem. I there a parameter setting somewhere that explains this difference? And if so, I wonder how it got changed...

I also note that when I have selected auto and pressed start, the screen seems to revert to perhaps the previous screen. It still seems to be offering me the choice of auto, manual etc even though I've already selected auto. Has something become screwed up? I don't recall if it always worked this way but at times I found myself wondering if I'd forgotten to select auto at all.
martyscncgarage
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Re: ProbeApp Official Release: Public Trial

Post by martyscncgarage »

If you are setting Part Zero with Tool 10, you MUST tell CNC12 it is Tool 10 in the Set Part Position for Z.

Let's see if CNC Keith/Marc/Tom can clarify on how the intended use of CNC12 uses the probe on setting Z0

Marty
Reminder, for support please follow this post: viewtopic.php?f=20&t=383
We can't "SEE" what you see...
Mesa, AZ
swissi
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Re: ProbeApp Official Release: Public Trial

Post by swissi »

Muzzer wrote: Sun Aug 09, 2020 10:59 am Yes, when you choose "auto", clearly the probe is being used, so that display is a bit misleading / unhelpful. I wonder if this is the root of the problem. I there a parameter setting somewhere that explains this difference? And if so, I wonder how it got changed...

I also note that when I have selected auto and pressed start, the screen seems to revert to perhaps the previous screen. It still seems to be offering me the choice of auto, manual etc even though I've already selected auto. Has something become screwed up? I don't recall if it always worked this way but at times I found myself wondering if I'd forgotten to select auto at all.
In the meantime I figured out while the Touch Probe is not automatically selected in your configuration. Your settings are configured to use the Tool Touch Off device to set Z Ref and that seems to tell CNC12 not to automatically use the configured tool number of the Touch Probe to set WCS Z0.

In your case you are using the Touch Probe to Touch off on the Tool Setter so both devices are involved but CNC12 needs to know that it is actually the Reference Tool which in your case is the Touch Probe that is setting the Z Ref point. It doesn't matter if it is the TP or the TT that actually triggers the Z Ref point. It will be the device which has less spring force but the point will be set correctly in any case.

S14.PNG

So if you change that setting marked in red to "No" the "Auto[F4]" function to set WCS Z0 will automatically use the TP tool number even when you leave the Tool Number field at 0. If you do this you will see that the H value of the Reference Tool MUST be 0 for Offsets to work properly as also cncnsw shows in his Guide on how to setup Tool Height Offsets with a configuration you have.

Please report back if this solved your problem.

-swissi
If you are using Fusion 360, check out my CNC12 specific Post Processor
If you are using a Touch Probe, Tool Touch Off Device or a Triple Corner Finder Plate, check out my ProbeApp

Contact me at swissi2000@gmail.com
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