Can't add negative number to Low Range Spindle Speed RatioRatio <milling machine as a lathe, resolved>

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cncsnw
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Re: Can't add negative number to Low Range Spindle Speed RatioRatio

Post by cncsnw »

Then why does it change mine and many others to proper spindle output in cnc12 mill with a ratio of -.117 entered into parm 65 or aka wizard entry spindle low gear ratio and has for 3 years with my encoder mounted on top of the spindle. :?:... And i have a comercial grade hand held laser tachometer that says i am reading actual spindle rpm, bothe in high and low range from cnc12 mill,just not cnc12 lathe.
That is because you probably have bit 4 of Parameter 36 set in your mill software. I do not have time to go looking to see whether any of the reports you posted were from the mill installation. Maybe you can just tell us what you have in P36 on your mill installation.

What Tom wrote notwithstanding, CNC12 mill does support RPM display and rigid tapping based on a spindle encoder that is on the motor side of a gearbox. That comes with the caveat that you cannot use peck tapping, or re-tap a hole, in any range that does not provide a 1:1 ratio between the encoder and the spindle. That limitation is because the index pulse will not be synchronized.

You tell CNC12 Mill that the encoder is on the motor side, and therefore affected by gear range ratios, by setting bit 4 of Parameter 36 (i.e. by adding 16 to the value).

As far as I can tell, CNC12 Lathe does not support that feature. Probably because lathes are almost always expected to perform threading in multiple passes, and that cannot be made to work with an encoder that is not 1:1, again because of the lack of index pulse synchronization.
tblough
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Re: Can't add negative number to Low Range Spindle Speed RatioRatio

Post by tblough »

1) Thread milling doesn't use the encoder, so that is why there are no problems with that.
2) Tapping on the mill will work fine in high and back gear. Peck tapping will not work in either.
3) Even if you get the "back gear" worked out in the lathe software, lathe threading in back gear will never work unless you can cut the thread in a single pass. High gear should work.

Your encoder is not connected 1:1 with the spindle. That is your problem.
Last edited by tblough on Thu Apr 04, 2024 5:08 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Cheers,

Tom
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Re: Can't add negative number to Low Range Spindle Speed RatioRatio

Post by msauto »

Ok thanks for the help guys. Im just gonna give up and call it quits on on threading. Thanks for all the help.
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Re: Can't add negative number to Low Range Spindle Speed RatioRatio

Post by msauto »

tblough wrote: Thu Apr 04, 2024 1:52 pm 1) Thread milling doesn't use the encoder, so that is why there are no problems with that.
2) Tapping on the mill will work fine in high and back gear. Peck tapping will not work in either.
3) Even if you get the "back gear" worked out in the lathe software, lathe threading will never work unless you can cut the thread in a single pass.

Your encoder is not connected 1:1 with the spindle. That is your problem.
1)I thought surely it did.

2)Cant speak to tapping on the mill, but I peck drill successfully all the time.(Just lucky i guess :roll: ) This is a working system that has been being used for about 3 years as mill only.

3)Maybe so.. I have only successful threaded 1/2x13 thread twice and it was in high gear with the machines speed control (variable drive belt ) turned down which adds a lot of torque on the bottom end. That's why I wanted to use low range.

My encoder is 1:1 in high range it runs off the draw bar which screws direct into the r8 collet which holds the tts tool holder with the stock in it. As long as i do not remove the tts tool holder (I assume this would foul up the sync, haven't tried).... i can make multiple passes back over the same thread even after threading is done just like Kieths video on the cnc12 lathe he picked up on ebay. I have done it lust to see if it would on the first one that I threaded.

Thanks again for your time trying to help :mrgreen:
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Re: Can't add negative number to Low Range Spindle Speed RatioRatio

Post by msauto »

cncsnw wrote: Thu Apr 04, 2024 1:38 pm
Then why does it change mine and many others to proper spindle output in cnc12 mill with a ratio of -.117 entered into parm 65 or aka wizard entry spindle low gear ratio and has for 3 years with my encoder mounted on top of the spindle. :?:... And i have a comercial grade hand held laser tachometer that says i am reading actual spindle rpm, bothe in high and low range from cnc12 mill,just not cnc12 lathe.
That is because you probably have bit 4 of Parameter 36 set in your mill software. I do not have time to go looking to see whether any of the reports you posted were from the mill installation. Maybe you can just tell us what you have in P36 on your mill installation.

What Tom wrote notwithstanding, CNC12 mill does support RPM display and rigid tapping based on a spindle encoder that is on the motor side of a gearbox. That comes with the caveat that you cannot use peck tapping, or re-tap a hole, in any range that does not provide a 1:1 ratio between the encoder and the spindle. That limitation is because the index pulse will not be synchronized.

You tell CNC12 Mill that the encoder is on the motor side, and therefore affected by gear range ratios, by setting bit 4 of Parameter 36 (i.e. by adding 16 to the value).

As far as I can tell, CNC12 Lathe does not support that feature. Probably because lathes are almost always expected to perform threading in multiple passes, and that cannot be made to work with an encoder that is not 1:1, again because of the lack of index pulse synchronization.
You are a genius CNCSNW !! :D :D :D :mrgreen: I cant speak to whether it will thread or anything else (i'm testing remotely, but headed to the shop soon as i finish this message)... but by golly my spindle speed is correct in low range . I set parm 36 to 17 as you suggested and whala works like my mill software. Even if threading doesn't work at least i can read proper rpm in low range. :ugeek:
msauto
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Re: Can't add negative number to Low Range Spindle Speed RatioRatio

Post by msauto »

Hey guys just wanted to post back and let yall know that i finally got it. Machine is cutting good threads concidering the operator.

Gotta do a little tuning in fusion(cant get intercon settings right yet) so i dont have to pick the thread back up for a second set of passes to pretty it up... but its working and cutting a decent thread & picking the same thread back up for second passes.

Heres a link to a couple of videos of it cutting and picking the thread back up.

https://1drv.ms/a/s!AlEMVpXAQYPSn8xbJxc6rG3FDikXMg
Thanks again for all your help!!
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Re: Can't add negative number to Low Range Spindle Speed RatioRatio

Post by cnckeith »

msauto wrote: Fri Apr 05, 2024 3:13 pm Hey guys just wanted to post back and let yall know that i finally got it. Machine is cutting good threads concidering the operator.

Gotta do a little tuning in fusion(cant get intercon settings right yet) so i dont have to pick the thread back up for a second set of passes to pretty it up... but its working and cutting a decent thread & picking the same thread back up for second passes.

Heres a link to a couple of videos of it cutting and picking the thread back up.

https://1drv.ms/a/s!AlEMVpXAQYPSn8xbJxc6rG3FDikXMg
Thanks again for all your help!!
teaching that old machine some new tricks! thanks for reporting back and posting the videos! very cool.
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msauto
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Re: Can't add negative number to Low Range Spindle Speed RatioRatio

Post by msauto »

teaching that old machine some new tricks! thanks for reporting back and posting the videos! very cool.

LOL, that ones not old its a 1984 model. The Leblond 16x96 lathe next to it is a 1942 model and the Monarch 21X120 covered with stuff across the shop is a 1943 and theres a 60s (I think) Cincinnati Tray Top 10x36 Lathe Next to the Leblond all in working order. The Leblond is next on the list for CNC conversion. I am planning to set it up with removable gang tooling so i can easily throw my qctp back on and use it manual if needed. :mrgreen:

Thanks again for your time and patience.
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