Router related questions.

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jazzcnc
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Router related questions.

Post by jazzcnc »

Happy new year to all from Wet cold UK.

Got few questions which relate mostly to using with routers.

Mostly I build custom routers here in the UK but do also retrofit few Mills occasionally. I've used just about every DIY controller from low to high end and must say I'm impressed with what I'm seeing from this little package. (So much one is Ordered for mill project)
Always known and admired the Centroid Software for a long time but the hardware put it out of most DIYers reach until now.

I mostly (99%) use Cslabs controllers because of there quality and backup. However, it suffers from one major Flaw.?... MACH 3.!!!!
However from a builders point of view who is dealing mostly with First-time users then Mach 3's large user base makes sense because it offers comfort to them after my hand holding ends or they need out of hours emergency help.
But unfortunately Mach3 is all but dead and Mach4 regrettably is beyond help, much like Artsoft.!

Other Controllers like Uccnc etc just seem to lack something either in software terms ie poor Plug-in's or let down by poor Spec or quality/reliability/backup etc.

So the questions.? (Actually just one main one really)

When two axis are working together as one unit: ie Slaved together. When homing does the controller home each axis individually to separate home switches.?
Most DIY routers tend to be stepper based due to cost. So for moving gantry type router, esp wide routers, this becomes important in case steps are lost or to simply square wide gantry.

Second less important and I suspect you will soon have it coverd is the need for easy way to manually change tools due to the type of ERcollet based spindles used on routers. Very few DIY/semi Industrial routers have ATC or Tool holder type spindles.

The question for now until I get my hands on the Acorn and can play is.! How do you easily set Z for the new tool as can't see button or Ref option on main screen.?

Look forward to playing and really hope does home to separate switches when slaving because can't wait to dump Mach3. If not then please consider adding the feature as Kills using it for wider/larger stepper based routers.

Cheers
Dean.
Gary Campbell
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Re: Router related questions.

Post by Gary Campbell »

Jazz...
You and I appear to do almost the same work on opposite sides of the pond, with the exception that I didn't fall into the Mach rabbit hole.

Look over this thread: viewtopic.php?f=60&t=1154

Note that the Centroid Acorn crew is very receptive to working towards a Router specific screens and macros setup. This has been said to include (in a future version of the software) a Router (vs mill or lathe) specific product directed at the tens of thousands of guys looking to escape from the Mach trap. Like you, I find UCCNC to be lacking in those same areas, plus it just seems a little too "Machy" to me. Add in that the developers seem to be going down the "a million users with a million requests" path that probably killed mach due to incompatibility issues.

Throw in a bit of arrogance where the developers don't seem to have a handle on modern smoothing, especially the centrifugal/centripital force settings and just say that those controllers "can't be as accurate".

It looks like I will be one of the guys working with the Acorn development team on the router package. So I will try to answer your questions to the best of my (current) knowledge:

Independent axis homing is on the list of requests, along with "adjust switch to table zero" parameters.

I have proposed, but am not aware of current development of 3 types of tool changing types. As I see them there are 3, defined loosly as follows:

1) Single tool (free versions) Uses a portable, probably conductive, z zero setting device to reference z to top or bottom of material
2) Multi tool manual change (pro version) Uses a fixed location (conductive or sensor) tool measure device that can be macro called during a cutting file to allow multiple tools in a single file with tool number callouts (manually changed, then measured)
3) Fully automatic ATC operations with fixed switch and tool storage on machine (table or G53) coordinates.

Your last, and forgive me that I haven't deciphered all of the macros, is without a doubt move Z to reference and press button is present, my guess, is that if the others are not in there (they are alluded to in "unfamiliar terms" in the manual, they will be in the near future.

Have any more questions, or suggestions?
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jazzcnc
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Re: Router related questions.

Post by jazzcnc »

Hi Gary,

Thanks for reply and yes looks like we do the similair. I help lots of people on popular UK forum, that said health/work troubles have kept me off there for good while but I'll be back on soon and if this controller works as expected then get ready for UK invasion..Lol.

It's Shame doesn't home independently thought I'd found the answer to Mach freedom.!!
That said I'll look deeper because as they say "Theres often more than one way to skin cat" and I certainly don't mind delving into macro's. Given the software stabilty and from brief looks superior motion could well still be worth investigating.

Regards Router specific suggestions then you have covered most of them linked thread. Air, Vac, Pins Etc
However in my experience based on my machine users when it comes to tool change on ER collet based spindle then just simple movable Z touch plate is most affective and preferred method. Esp on large routers where the Fixed plate software based Auto tool change type setups take far too long waiting for it moving back n forth doing the tool measuring.
With movable plate the tool is changed and measured in secs and one way cutting again. .Time is money after all.!!

The thing I like about Centroid software is standardization. No custom screens etc other than programable buttons so every centroid screen I've seen looks the same. This is great for me when dealing with users. Custom buttons are easy to deal with, esp when I'll be the only one setting them up.

When I get hands on Acorn I'll probably be back with more questions and/or suggestions. If can help in anyway with development on router side just ask.
Gary Campbell
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Re: Router related questions.

Post by Gary Campbell »

Dean...
I don't think there is a reason to be disappointed over the lack of dual (paired) axis homing autosquare. We haven't seen the router version and these Centroid guys are a bunch of scary smart and motivated guys.

Notes: The control already supports paired axis. A macro that allows 2 different "back off the switch" parameters shouldnt be impossible
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jazzcnc
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Re: Router related questions.

Post by jazzcnc »

Gary Campbell wrote: Mon Jan 01, 2018 5:18 pm Dean...
I don't think there is a reason to be disappointed over the lack of dual (paired) axis homing autosquare. We haven't seen the router version and these Centroid guys are a bunch of scary smart and motivated guys.

Notes: The control already supports paired axis. A macro that allows 2 different "back off the switch" parameters shouldnt be impossible
No sure won't be disappointed and smart dudes are always welcome in my camp.

Yes a Macro hack is the sort of thing I had in mind. Did similar thing using relays/inputs/outputs and macro with Cslabs 4 axis control which doesn't support dual switches? ....Do like challenge. :D
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Re: Router related questions.

Post by bloomingtonmike »

Due to lack of tool holders in my ER20 setup I currently use two plates in mach. One is moveable and used on top of the work. The other is fixed and always at the bed layer. Swapping tools just requires a touch off on the second plate as it computes the offset from the first plate. While you could just touch off again at the 1st plate wherever you are you make an assumption that the reference top plane still exists. Hence my safetey of always having the bottom of the work plate #2 at the bed layer.

Ideally i would move to a TTS type tool holding system and measure and store all my tool measurement offsets for my router like i do for my mill and like I will do for my lathe. Harder to do that with a cheap chinese spindle and er20. Also to may not be as cost conscious. Maybe ill use the lathe and just make my own.
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Re: Router related questions.

Post by martyscncgarage »

Gary Campbell wrote: Mon Jan 01, 2018 5:18 pm Dean...
I don't think there is a reason to be disappointed over the lack of dual (paired) axis homing autosquare. We haven't seen the router version and these Centroid guys are a bunch of scary smart and motivated guys.

Notes: The control already supports paired axis. A macro that allows 2 different "back off the switch" parameters shouldnt be impossible
Axis slaving exists in Acorn....Check your Wizard tabs boyz....
Reminder, for support please follow this post: viewtopic.php?f=20&t=383
We can't "SEE" what you see...
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jazzcnc
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Re: Router related questions.

Post by jazzcnc »

martyscncgarage wrote: Mon Jan 01, 2018 7:04 pm
Gary Campbell wrote: Mon Jan 01, 2018 5:18 pm Dean...
I don't think there is a reason to be disappointed over the lack of dual (paired) axis homing autosquare. We haven't seen the router version and these Centroid guys are a bunch of scary smart and motivated guys.

Notes: The control already supports paired axis. A macro that allows 2 different "back off the switch" parameters shouldnt be impossible
Axis slaving exists in Acorn....Check your Wizard tabs boyz....
Yes know this marty but when homing does it use home switch for each axis is my question. So can square wide gantry or correct missed steps.?
Not having Acorn yet I can't check out the wizard tabs to check. Might be good idea for Vid to run thru all the options of Wizard.?
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Re: Router related questions.

Post by martyscncgarage »

jazzcnc wrote: Mon Jan 01, 2018 7:13 pm
martyscncgarage wrote: Mon Jan 01, 2018 7:04 pm
Gary Campbell wrote: Mon Jan 01, 2018 5:18 pm Dean...
I don't think there is a reason to be disappointed over the lack of dual (paired) axis homing autosquare. We haven't seen the router version and these Centroid guys are a bunch of scary smart and motivated guys.

Notes: The control already supports paired axis. A macro that allows 2 different "back off the switch" parameters shouldnt be impossible
Axis slaving exists in Acorn....Check your Wizard tabs boyz....
Yes know this marty but when homing does it use home switch for each axis is my question. So can square wide gantry or correct missed steps.?
Not having Acorn yet I can't check out the wizard tabs to check. Might be good idea for Vid to run thru all the options of Wizard.?

:o :shock:

I am intersted in this topic as well. I hope to build a stout router table that will also do plasma.
Let me see if we can't get an EXpert on this issue to chime in. There is an Acorn user taking commercial Routers and converting them so I think its all there.....

Marty
Reminder, for support please follow this post: viewtopic.php?f=20&t=383
We can't "SEE" what you see...
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Gary Campbell
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Re: Router related questions.

Post by Gary Campbell »

Marty....
RE: your words: "Axis slaving exists in Acorn....Check your Wizard tabs boyz...."

I posted above that paired axes were supported, saying: "Notes: The control already supports paired axis. A macro that allows 2 different "back off the switch" parameters shouldnt be impossible"

The axis homing is one of the most significant differences between mill (and their controllers) and routers (and theirs). To me, it may be the most important item in how the "routerhead" world accepts Centroid Control in general and possibly the Acorn system in particular. Virtually all prospective purchasers (myself included) will usually have the expectation that commonly used router conventions are available, just as those seeking mill or lathe control would. I myself stumbled on Acorn via another forum post regarding lathe control and feature.

In most cases when a router homes, it is in the negative direction, in X & Y, positive in the Z. I would guess that about 50% or less of router tables even have Z homing switches. Once homed there is usually a setting that sends the head (read as machine coordinates) in the X and Y to the lower left (G53 XY0) corner of the physical table or spoilboard. I said usually, I mean virtually always. In some cases in ATC machines with front mounted tool racks this adjustment or "limit switch rollback" is 10-12", in most cases it is a couple inches or less. In any case it needs to be there.

The next item refers to Independent Axis Squaring. This is used on router tables with dual motor gantry's. These are not heavy milling machines and it is not uncommon, especially in homebuilt machines to see a gantry out of square by up to an inch. Seldom, if ever are they actually square "out of the box". All controls I am aware of, except one, has adjustment during homing for dual axes built in or supported via add-on. During use, tweaks of a few thousandths one way or the other are part of normal maintenance. I added my own in that case, as the MFGR instructions stated to simply install provided stop blocks and pull the unpowered gantry against them and power on the control. I knew there had to be a better way.

Once squared and homed the machine (table) coordinates will usually be at the lower left corner of the physical table, or another user adjustable location. If not set otherwise the G54 (user) coordinate system is also referenced there until changed by the user. Once the job requiring that offset is complete, the G54 offset can be either changed or toggled off. All fixed location operations like tool measure switch or tool holding forks are located using the G53 coordinate system. Very few users use multiple offset options such as G55,56, etc. unless they are producing parts commercially and have fixed location workholding fixtures installed.

The vast majority of router users simply use a conductive Z setting device to reference the Z to the top of the material. That happens to be my least preferred method, but will admit that it is most likely the most popular, due to ease of understanding. The vast majority are using routers or sub 5hp spindles with a loose collet system. Bits are changed (and then zeroed) as needed. There is no way or need to store any tool information. Cut files are generated as one bit (possible multiple operations) per file. Next bit = next file. My guess: ~90% of routers use this method

All but the least featured control systems have a method for manual tool change, which allows multiple bits in one file (a true job), moving to a predetermined bit change location, pausing to allow operator to change out the bit, then prompting him to jog to the preferred Z zero location for loose plate zero, or rapid move to fixed location Z setter, back to location (if needed) to reinstall dust shoe, ask for operator input [ENTER] then file proceeds to completion or next tool call. My guess: 5-6%

Lastly the ATC. Works as you would expect, premeasured, pre-positioned tools in tapered holders, ready to be exchanged via gcode as required in the cut file. Straight line racks in X or Y 6 to 15 tools and rotary changers 4 to 8 tools are the most common. My guess: 3-4%
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