Setting up Auto/Tech hybrid steppers in the Wizard?

All things related to the Centroid Acorn CNC Controller

Moderator: cnckeith

Dave_C
Posts: 669
Joined: Wed Nov 15, 2017 8:25 pm
Acorn CNC Controller: Yes
Allin1DC CNC Controller: No
Oak CNC controller: No
CNC Control System Serial Number: none
DC3IOB: No
CNC11: No
CPU10 or CPU7: No
Location: Springfield, MO. USA
Contact:

Re: Setting up Auto/Tech hybrid steppers in the Wizard?

Post by Dave_C »

Doc,

You are on the right track with how the pulses are interpreted! The driver does indeed do what you said. So don't worry about the motor being three phase and so on, just figure out what switch settings you want, figure out how Acorn wants the info put in (Marty can help there) and it should work.

I don't have my Acorn board yet, it is on the way, so I have not got into the setup other than reading the manual.

Sometimes it helps to clear out the cob webs and just start over with a setup, reading each entry to see what it is asking for.

You'll get it,

Dave C.
Grizzly G0678 Mill ,CNC conversion with Acorn. G4004G Lathe, Mach 3 conversion to Acorn.
cncman172
Posts: 254
Joined: Thu Nov 02, 2017 4:07 pm
Acorn CNC Controller: Yes
Allin1DC CNC Controller: No
Oak CNC controller: No
CNC Control System Serial Number: 985DAD429EE9-0926170118
DC3IOB: No
CNC11: No
CPU10 or CPU7: No
Location: Westerville, Ohio

Re: Setting up Auto/Tech hybrid steppers in the Wizard?

Post by cncman172 »

Doc,
You are probably making this way more complicated that it needs to be. The Acorn sends pulses to the stepper driver, the driver actually determines how much current to send to the motor to get it to move a given amount. The motor has 200 poles on a typical stepper motor. There are some that actually have 400 poles. Those motors will move one revolution with 200 or 400 step respectively. Micro stepping is a way they have come up which interpolates positions in between the major pole steps. So if a driver is set to 1/8 micro stepping it will take 200 * 8 = 1600 steps to make a full revolution of the motor. Sounds like these latest drivers have some poor documentation or don't follow typical stepper drivers. You said 300 steps per revolution which is really uncommon. Anyway, it would be best not to go crazy on micro stepping as someone else mentioned. All the experts that design stepper drivers like Gecko tell you that anything about 1/10 does nothing, since you are really at the limits of interpolation. Also keep in mind the more steps per revolutions you get finer resolution but slow speeds. It is a mix and you need to find a balance. Lots of machines use 1/8 which is 1600 steps and it seems to be pretty effective. Since you are lacking documentation you might need to take a motor put it on the bench and build yourself a table on a pad of paper. Issue commands in Centroid software using the MDI window. For example lets say you decide to understand what is happening so you remove the X motor. In the MDI window you can issue gcode commands like G1 X1 F10 make sure you attach a piece of tape to the motor shaft and mark where it is located by aligning it with another piece of paper with a line or other method. Now list the various dip switch settings. Give the command and write down how far the motor turns. I selected a slow feedrate so you can see exactly what is happening. You will probably need to power down the stepper driver between each dip switch setting. The controllers in the stepper driver normally read the dip switches on start up. After you go through all the combinations you will have a table that tells you exactly how the settings changes the amount of rotation. This will give you the data you need to figure out the correct settings. Hope you followed all my rambling. LOL

Russ
martyscncgarage
Posts: 9912
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2017 12:01 pm
Acorn CNC Controller: Yes
Allin1DC CNC Controller: Yes
Oak CNC controller: No
CNC Control System Serial Number: none
DC3IOB: No
CNC12: Yes
CNC11: Yes
CPU10 or CPU7: Yes
Location: Mesa, AZ

Re: Setting up Auto/Tech hybrid steppers in the Wizard?

Post by martyscncgarage »

cncman172 wrote: Thu Dec 21, 2017 9:57 am Doc,
You are probably making this way more complicated that it needs to be. The Acorn sends pulses to the stepper driver, the driver actually determines how much current to send to the motor to get it to move a given amount. The motor has 200 poles on a typical stepper motor. There are some that actually have 400 poles. Those motors will move one revolution with 200 or 400 step respectively. Micro stepping is a way they have come up which interpolates positions in between the major pole steps. So if a driver is set to 1/8 micro stepping it will take 200 * 8 = 1600 steps to make a full revolution of the motor. Sounds like these latest drivers have some poor documentation or don't follow typical stepper drivers. You said 300 steps per revolution which is really uncommon. Anyway, it would be best not to go crazy on micro stepping as someone else mentioned. All the experts that design stepper drivers like Gecko tell you that anything about 1/10 does nothing, since you are really at the limits of interpolation. Also keep in mind the more steps per revolutions you get finer resolution but slow speeds. It is a mix and you need to find a balance. Lots of machines use 1/8 which is 1600 steps and it seems to be pretty effective. Since you are lacking documentation you might need to take a motor put it on the bench and build yourself a table on a pad of paper. Issue commands in Centroid software using the MDI window. For example lets say you decide to understand what is happening so you remove the X motor. In the MDI window you can issue gcode commands like G1 X1 F10 make sure you attach a piece of tape to the motor shaft and mark where it is located by aligning it with another piece of paper with a line or other method. Now list the various dip switch settings. Give the command and write down how far the motor turns. I selected a slow feedrate so you can see exactly what is happening. You will probably need to power down the stepper driver between each dip switch setting. The controllers in the stepper driver normally read the dip switches on start up. After you go through all the combinations you will have a table that tells you exactly how the settings changes the amount of rotation. This will give you the data you need to figure out the correct settings. Hope you followed all my rambling. LOL

Russ
Exactly! Over analyzing will lead you to chasing your tail. K.I.S.S. principle applies. :)
Bench test. Set wizard overall turns ration to 1. Put a piece of tape on the motor shaft.
Start with 4000 steps/per rev.
Setup simple home

Go into CNC12
Test motor movement by setting to continuous and just try and see if motors turn
Press Alt-S to set home
Go to MDI
Command a 1" move (G0X1)
See if shaft turns one revolution. If it does you are set. If it doesn't monkey around with those dipswitches until it does.

I don't see why there are dip switches for microstepping on a closed loop stepper....I have asked John at Automation Technologies about this. I wonder if you got some older drive. How long ago did you buy it?

The higher the steps per rev, the lower your Max rate can be. You eat up pulses going to a higher steps/rev and that gets compounded with your pulley and screw gearing. (Takes more pulses to move the machine an inch)

Acorn can output 400K steps per second rather than the traditional 200k, (See tab 4) but your motor drive must be able to take it, and the manual I downloaded says it can ony take 200k that I saw.

Get that machine done and making parts Doc!
Reminder, for support please follow this post: viewtopic.php?f=20&t=383
We can't "SEE" what you see...
Mesa, AZ
DocsMachine
Posts: 150
Joined: Mon Oct 30, 2017 8:43 pm
Acorn CNC Controller: Yes
Allin1DC CNC Controller: No
Oak CNC controller: No
CNC Control System Serial Number: none
DC3IOB: No
CNC11: No
CPU10 or CPU7: No

Re: Setting up Auto/Tech hybrid steppers in the Wizard?

Post by DocsMachine »

cncman172 wrote: Thu Dec 21, 2017 9:57 am You said 300 steps per revolution which is really uncommon.
-They're three-pole, 1.2 degree motors. I agree they're uncommon, I have no idea why AT chose those. They seem to work just fine though, I just need to know how to set them. :D
In the MDI window you can issue gcode commands like G1 X1 F10 make sure you attach a piece of tape to the motor shaft and mark where it is located by aligning it with another piece of paper with a line or other method. Now list the various dip switch settings. Give the command and write down how far the motor turns.
-Not a bad idea, I might just try that over the weekend.

Doc.
762x51
Posts: 119
Joined: Wed Aug 02, 2017 8:40 pm
Acorn CNC Controller: Yes
Allin1DC CNC Controller: No
Oak CNC controller: No
CNC Control System Serial Number: B0D5CC56DD75-0605170063 , 985DAD4295CF-0928170127 , 38D2694E4703-1222170401
DC3IOB: No
CNC11: No
CPU10 or CPU7: No
Location: Near Guilford College, Greensboro, NC
Contact:

Re: Setting up Auto/Tech hybrid steppers in the Wizard?

Post by 762x51 »

Because I may be interested on using these hybrid steppers on a project in the future I decided to give Automation Technology a call and ask them about their recommended step setting. The person I spoke with had a very strong accent and he was hard to understand at times but he said setting the microstep at 8 would be the best so steps should be set at 1600.

Based on their documentation and Doc's postings, I thought the NEMA 23 steppers were 3 phase, 1.2 degrees but the person I spoke to said, no they are 1.8 degree steppers.

Doc - I'd give them a call to see if they have sent you 1.8 degree steppers - This may be what's causing you problems getting your system set up.
DocsMachine
Posts: 150
Joined: Mon Oct 30, 2017 8:43 pm
Acorn CNC Controller: Yes
Allin1DC CNC Controller: No
Oak CNC controller: No
CNC Control System Serial Number: none
DC3IOB: No
CNC11: No
CPU10 or CPU7: No

Re: Setting up Auto/Tech hybrid steppers in the Wizard?

Post by DocsMachine »

martyscncgarage wrote: Thu Dec 21, 2017 10:22 am Bench test. [snipped] See if shaft turns one revolution. If it does you are set. If it doesn't monkey around with those dipswitches until it does.
-Again a good idea. Looks like I'm the early-adopter here and it's up to me to establish the baselines. :)
I don't see why there are dip switches for microstepping on a closed loop stepper....I have asked John at Automation Technologies about this. I wonder if you got some older drive. How long ago did you buy it?
-Mid-late November. Roughly five weeks ago? Something like a week later, you posted your "how to wire" video for them, and you had a different driver, and the cable relief for the stepper end cap was different. I have no idea, maybe I got a set of prototypes or something.
The higher the steps per rev, the lower your Max rate can be.
-Yep, and the more you microstep, the lower your holding torque. Which is why I went with the relatively large 3:1 reduction on both my belt drives- I'm less concerned with "top speed" as I am accuracy and reliability. The belt reduction allows what is essentially a "mechanical microstep", but retains and actually improves holding torque.
Get that machine done and making parts Doc!
-I'd love to, but I do have other calls on my time, on occasion. :D

It's also worth noting that I'm extremely new at all this- neither electronics nor programming are anything like my strong suits, and as I said, occasionally I wind up knowing just enough to become dangerous. :)

Even after I get the thing up and running, I still have a long row to hoe just figuring out how to run it.

So, yeah, bear with me a little. :)

Doc.
DocsMachine
Posts: 150
Joined: Mon Oct 30, 2017 8:43 pm
Acorn CNC Controller: Yes
Allin1DC CNC Controller: No
Oak CNC controller: No
CNC Control System Serial Number: none
DC3IOB: No
CNC11: No
CPU10 or CPU7: No

Re: Setting up Auto/Tech hybrid steppers in the Wizard?

Post by DocsMachine »

762x51 wrote: Thu Dec 21, 2017 4:48 pm Doc - I'd give them a call to see if they have sent you 1.8 degree steppers - This may be what's causing you problems getting your system set up.
-No, they're three-wire, not four-wire. Three poles is a 300 step/rev, 1.2 degree motor, at least as I understand it. The documentation I downloaded from their site also indicated it was a three-wire, three-pole, 1.2-degree motor, and the stepper driver only has three possible connections out to the motor.

AT also sells regular steppers and drivers, it's possible the fellow misunderstood you. I spoke to them yesterday, and the guy I talked to had no accent, but also stated he dealt mainly with the open-loop stuff. He said I should basically just treat the system I have as a regular open-loop setup, which is why I realized I was overthinking this, and just need to send the driver whatever number of pulses I've set the driver for, regardless of the motor it's trying to drive.

Doc.
762x51
Posts: 119
Joined: Wed Aug 02, 2017 8:40 pm
Acorn CNC Controller: Yes
Allin1DC CNC Controller: No
Oak CNC controller: No
CNC Control System Serial Number: B0D5CC56DD75-0605170063 , 985DAD4295CF-0928170127 , 38D2694E4703-1222170401
DC3IOB: No
CNC11: No
CPU10 or CPU7: No
Location: Near Guilford College, Greensboro, NC
Contact:

Re: Setting up Auto/Tech hybrid steppers in the Wizard?

Post by 762x51 »

Doc,

I specifically asked him if the NEMA 23's were 1.2 deg 3 phase steppers and he said no, they are 1.8 deg 2 phase steppers.

Maybe they have changed them after you ordered yours and maybe that's how they were able to drop their price.

Orin
DocsMachine
Posts: 150
Joined: Mon Oct 30, 2017 8:43 pm
Acorn CNC Controller: Yes
Allin1DC CNC Controller: No
Oak CNC controller: No
CNC Control System Serial Number: none
DC3IOB: No
CNC11: No
CPU10 or CPU7: No

Re: Setting up Auto/Tech hybrid steppers in the Wizard?

Post by DocsMachine »

Okay, what am I doing wrong?

I disconnected both motors so they can turn freely, without worrying about anything crashing into the chuck. :) Put a sharpie line on the pulleys to I can see how they turn. Started both Acorn and the PC, went into the Wizard, and set the pulses/rev for 400 (ostensibly the default of the drivers) and the turns ratio to 1.

Opened the MDI, told it G1Z1F10, hit cycle start. The Z motor made one full revolution.

I cannot get it to do that again. I try the same thing in the MDI again, pressing "cycle start" does nothing. Cycle the E-stop or reset buttons and trying the same thing in the MDI again- cycle start does nothing. Manual jog does nothing. (incremental or continuous.)

Power down the Acorn and powering it back up, restarting CNC12, try the MDI entry again, cycle start does nothing, manual jog does nothing.

Power down the Acorn, power down the PC, start everything back up, I can cycle the motors once each, then never again. The drives are not faulting out, powering them down and bringing them back up changes nothing.

I can run the "Pawn" program, and the motors want to move in what appears to be a proper motion, but they're extremely noisy, like they're vibrating along, or chattering along, rather than turning smoothly.

Please keep in mind I'm extremely new to all this, and I expect I'm overlooking something terribly simple. Any thoughts?

Doc.
DICKEYBIRD
Posts: 536
Joined: Sat Jul 08, 2017 7:38 am
Acorn CNC Controller: Yes
Allin1DC CNC Controller: No
Oak CNC controller: No
CNC Control System Serial Number: n/a yet
DC3IOB: No
CNC11: No
CPU10 or CPU7: No
Location: Collierville, TN USA

Re: Setting up Auto/Tech hybrid steppers in the Wizard?

Post by DICKEYBIRD »

I'm no expert with CNC12 but have been playing around a bit lately Doc. It works very different from Mach. I've had some unexplained self induced MDI troubles too. I find that it does **EXACTLY** what you tell it to do & the weird stuff is due to a lack of understanding on my part. Perhaps a more experienced user will chime in.

That aside, I'm very surprised that a 1" Z command gets you only 1 full turn of the Z motor?? That can't be right :shock:
Milton in Collierville, TN

"Accuracy is the sum total of your compensating mistakes."
Post Reply